Survey on bga conventions

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Romain672
Posts: 101
Joined: 05 April 2016, 13:53

Survey on bga conventions

Post by Romain672 » 13 January 2020, 19:07

Hi world.
I'm curious to know the opinion of the community about some specfic points of the conventions.

Thanks if you answer to this survey : https://forms.gle/mX2NpeZ9J9BQH1PaA

Feel free to talk about some specific points here.

(link to the 'answers', please read it only when you answered the survey : https://textup.fr/396337Nq )

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RicardoRix
Posts: 720
Joined: 29 April 2012, 23:43

Re: Survey on bga conventions

Post by RicardoRix » 13 January 2020, 21:35

is that survey in English? I have no idea what you're talking about.

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qpenguin
Posts: 22
Joined: 17 March 2014, 21:30

Re: Survey on bga conventions

Post by qpenguin » 13 January 2020, 22:38

I've completed the survey. However, I think the survey is biased because of the way you worded the options. It probably will be less biased if it was picture displayed and with what is you next move question

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Pistolero
Posts: 19
Joined: 12 February 2017, 01:39

Re: Survey on bga conventions

Post by Pistolero » 16 January 2020, 14:48

I'll try to explain why I think the conventions are wrong, for a philosophical point of view.

First, I think there is no convention, but pure logical moves that are deduced from logic.

I need to post something about it, I'm currently re-reading my little text.

The problem some players try to solve is that it is possible that logic is not enough to reach 30, when certain evil situations appear. And those players try to solve those issues by forcing people on how to play. Basically they want to transform players into robots.

The most elegant way to do that is then to code the perfect hannabi player, like Alpha Go or something. Write the perfect algorythm that will resolve all Hannabi games (and also try to asset if each game allows to reach 30, I don't think all games allow that). It would be a fantastic idea.

By REFUSING false conventions (like I do), I open the door for art. Art is when a certain move cannot be 100% explained by logic. It's thus a move that can be discussed, that is right AND wrong (but it needs to be at least partially right). Sometimes it will work, sometimes not.

I think at high level, sometimes, some games allows you to perform like an "art" move. And it's great, it's fun. Forcing some conventions would just kill that part.

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Romain672
Posts: 101
Joined: 05 April 2016, 13:53

Re: Survey on bga conventions

Post by Romain672 » 16 January 2020, 20:57

I got enough results in 3 days. Thanks for answering it.
First, I don't want to force players to change their habbit. Each player have his own way of thinking/playing. I just want to perhaps make people react to some move if their choice isn't on the majority.
Answers : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =762949442 (the +X is the number of player that I decided to put on this option but this player use the option 'other' )'

Let's see :
- 2saves : 62% assume a save clue on the 2. 26% a play clue on the 2. (if I remove 2b or not 2b players I got the same results).
I'm really surprised by these answers because for me 90% of bga players doesn't save the 2 at 3 players at level expert or more.
Either people want to save 2, but doesn't save them, or I got many answers from 'logical players', or...
After it's just a choice to made. Not much interresting things to said about it, it have strength and drawbacks.

- Playing 1 from right : 75% of people are agree on that. 23% still play them from left to right, and 3% answer it doesn't matter.
I already explained a lot why (check here : https://textup.fr/396337Nq ) so let's move on.
I think it's some good numbers : from my experience, most of the players do it, but not all of them.

- Bluff with multi :
82% assume b2 or m2, while 18% assume b2.
I'm really susrprised by this answer because I regullary saw some mistakes about that. But apparently most of the people are agree on that.

- Playing a 1 while finessed :
46% play the 1 as usual, 39% play the leftmost 1 instead, and 14% always play leftmost.
Already gave my opinion about that (https://textup.fr/396337Nq ) but most of the good player I know just play the 1 as usual.

- Occupied play clue :
62% assume a save clue, 38% assume a finesse.
It was really the feeling I got from the community.
Like I already said on my link, at 'high level', when it's Alice turn, and Cathy need to receive a play clue on her second position, Alice have the power to choose which player between her or Bob will give the play clue : if she did it, she (if Alice and Bob's hand are comparable) consider her more or less random chop is more usefull than Bob chop. If she let Bob does the clue, she tell Bob he have an usefull card on chop (but ofc, Bob doesn't save it, he will just be less likely to discard next turn).
This mean, since we use that a lot (because it cost nothing), occupied play clue seem out of place.
But I know another set of convention who use it, so there is some strong arguments.

- Free choice finesse :
Like qpenguin said, I suppose I biaised this question on how I turn the sentences.
49% assume the color make the next player play his finesse position or his saved green card.
32% assume it depend of context.
and 19% always assume it's the green card which are finesse.
This 'convention' is very interresting, because whatever you think, sometimes green and white really give the same amount of information, so it seem not logical to not let Alice choose which slot Bob will play.
But on the other side, sometimes the white clue could give an usefull negative. And green isn't always the best clue to give overall (it's the most obvious, but not the best one).
I will let do your own opinion about that, but it will still ruins game :P

- Trash clue :
I got many persons who tell me they never seen that move.
The logic behind it is when all 1 are played except g1. And Alice clue 1 to r1 to Cathy. You are Bob, you see that, and you understand you have g1 in slot 1. Why did Alice did that? Either because 1 or green was not great on Bob (even if on this example, 1 will be conventionnally always fine), or because she want to save Cathy's cards one more turn (maybe she have an usefull 2 not playable and not savable on chop).
74% assume two useless 1.
23% assume only the first 1 useless.
4% doesn't play their finesse position as Bob.
I gave you my opinion on the link. But maybe it's not exact.

- Two away bluff :
I know it's not much used on bga, but I already saw that move done, so I was interrested by the opinions.
38% assume r2 in the slot 1 (81% save it if it arrive on chop, 14% discard it, and 5% doesn't know what to do).
31% said Cathy should assume nothing, and someone will fix the clue to Donald.
And 31% assume a double bluff.
Not much things to add, it's not used, but it's interresting to think about it.

______________________________________________________________________________________

For those who doesn't know, '2b or not 2b' group is a group which regroup good players, players who want to discuss about conventions, etc... I got 15 answer from them. And let's see their answer :
- 2saves are on our group at 3players, else it's off. So this question doesn't have much sense (10 answer for a save, and 5 for a play).
- we all play 1 from right to left.
- 14 answer for b2/m2 and 1 answer for b2.
- 11 for playing leftmost 1 first, 3 for rightmost first (hello it's me), and 1 who always play leftmost (huh lul?).
- Occupied play clue : 9 who assume Bob should discard, while 6 who assume a play, which is weird, since I doesn't remember any recent problem with that convention. Maybe some people who doesn't play much our game answered I suppose.
- Free choice finesse : 4 for assuming Alice can choose the color depending of the slot Bob need to play, 4 which said it depend of context, 5 which assume the green saved card will always be finessed, 1 who doesn't play with multicolor (huh?), and 1 who didn't understood the situation.
- Trash clue : 12 for assuming both trash 1, and 3 who assume only the first 1 is useless.
- Two away bluff : 10 who said Cathy should assume r2 in her slot 1 (and 9 save it if it arrive on chop, for only 1 discard), and 5 who assume Donald will require a fix. Very interresting.

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When I want to separate others results, I just can't. There is many players who plays 1 from left to right, and who said they understood well my two concepts. All the best player are agree about the starting 1 (logical, conventional, bga, etc). It doesn't make sense.
So here is the results for those who said their level is really high and play the 1 from right to left.
- 11 persons assume a 2save, 8 assume a play.
- so ofc, 20 play from right to left.
- 17 assume b2/m2, 3 assume b2.
- 5 play the leftmost 1 when a finesse is going on, while 14 play the rightmost.
- Occupied play clue : 7 assume a finesse, while 12 assume Bob should discard.
- Free choice finesse : 7 assume Alice can choose the color depending of the slot. 7 said it depend of context, and 5 always assume the green card playable.
- Trash clue : 18 assume two useless 1, 2 assume only the first 1 useless.
- Two away bluff : 8 assume r2 in slot 1 (7 save it if it arrive on chop, 1 discard), 7 assume a fix clue on Donald, and 3 assume a double bluff.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

And this finish my review.
It was really interresting for me, because I was surprised more than one time for some answer. And I know the community is completely divided in some advanced move, and there is never a big change between the 'best' player and the community for these questions.
Thanks for reading that , feel free to comment :D

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