Unfair rules at draw games

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LuxuryJesper
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Joined: 26 June 2019, 10:34

Unfair rules at draw games

Post by LuxuryJesper » 22 May 2020, 20:10

What I don't get about draws, is that it isn't actually a tie, since the weak player of the two gets points, while the strong player loses points. In other words; the weak player actually benefits from a game, where there is no winner! While the strong player get's punished, by simple being better. Actually, the weak player can do everything in his/her power to destroy the game, and benefit from it.

A new game is supposed to be from scratch, but if one of the two players have an advantage even before the game begins, then it isn't equal.

BGA should change the outcome of draws.

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Jest Phulin
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Re: Unfair rules at draw games

Post by Jest Phulin » 22 May 2020, 22:36

If I am expected to beat you 90% of the time, and I don't beat you (you actually tie me), doesn't that mean you are playing better than me for that game? If the league champions play to a draw against a team in the relegation zone, the analysis will be about how well the lower team did or how poorly the champions did. It will be a much different conversation than if two closely ranked teams played to a draw.

In a 1v1 game, ties should reward the weaker player.


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And, now the thread hijack by other players talking about a more than 2 player game where someone leaves, and the results are calculated as if everyone except the leaving player tied. That has been discussed before, and I think the latest consensus is "Yes, it isn't quite fair, but it is rare enough and fixing it would take away from higher priority projects, so it isn't going to be addressed any time soon"

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N_Faker
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Re: Unfair rules at draw games

Post by N_Faker » 22 May 2020, 23:18

Most board games also do not end in a tied game by design. Nine Men's Morris is a rare case in this regard.

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aesche
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Re: Unfair rules at draw games

Post by aesche » 23 May 2020, 14:56

Reposting this in this thread (where it initially should have gone, got confused by the same topic in various places)
aesche wrote:
23 May 2020, 01:02
Referring to Nine Men‘s Morris too, I strongly agree that draws should not lead to a point loss for the player with higher ELO! OP said everything relevant, it’s just wrong as it is currently. Also, like we just can see in Connect 4, this is possible to implement!

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LuxuryJesper
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Re: Unfair rules at draw games

Post by LuxuryJesper » 23 May 2020, 20:47

Jest Phulin wrote:
22 May 2020, 22:36
If I am expected to beat you 90% of the time, and I don't beat you (you actually tie me), doesn't that mean you are playing better than me for that game? If the league champions play to a draw against a team in the relegation zone, the analysis will be about how well the lower team did or how poorly the champions did. It will be a much different conversation than if two closely ranked teams played to a draw.

In a 1v1 game, ties should reward the weaker player.


--------------
And, now the thread hijack by other players talking about a more than 2 player game where someone leaves, and the results are calculated as if everyone except the leaving player tied. That has been discussed before, and I think the latest consensus is "Yes, it isn't quite fair, but it is rare enough and fixing it would take away from higher priority projects, so it isn't going to be addressed any time soon"
I don't like the word "expected". Even if a +500 points player ties with a +350 points (which is a lot) player, the second person benefits from it. It shouldn't be that way. Every game should be equal - favorite or not.
In regards to your league comparison, it doesn't work that way. Every player doesn't play 34-38 games, and then a winner is being crowned.

The thing here is, that there isn't a time limit. A game could potentially go on for 5 hours. So, you both agree on, that there isn't gonna be a winner. And even if a tie happens in football, both of the teams gets 1 point. Otherwise you might as well say, that the weaker team won 1-1! - which is ridiculous.

In regards to games with more than 2 people, that is a completely different discussion.

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LuxuryJesper
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Re: Unfair rules at draw games

Post by LuxuryJesper » 23 May 2020, 20:49

N_Faker wrote:
22 May 2020, 23:18
Most board games also do not end in a tied game by design. Nine Men's Morris is a rare case in this regard.
What do you mean with "by design"?

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LuxuryJesper
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Re: Unfair rules at draw games

Post by LuxuryJesper » 23 May 2020, 20:56

aesche wrote:
23 May 2020, 14:56
Reposting this in this thread (where it initially should have gone, got confused by the same topic in various places)
aesche wrote:
23 May 2020, 01:02
Referring to Nine Men‘s Morris too, I strongly agree that draws should not lead to a point loss for the player with higher ELO! OP said everything relevant, it’s just wrong as it is currently. Also, like we just can see in Connect 4, this is possible to implement!
Sometimes, if you want your message heard, you need to spread it. And given that nothing had happened since I posted the suggestion in the previous "area", I saw no other option. I have no intention of spamming BGA.

I'm glad you agree, in regards to my point/suggestion.

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N_Faker
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Re: Unfair rules at draw games

Post by N_Faker » 23 May 2020, 20:59

LuxuryJesper wrote:
23 May 2020, 20:49
What do you mean with "by design"?
Tied games are impossible in most board games. And those in which it is possible, usually has many tiebreakers.

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LuxuryJesper
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Re: Unfair rules at draw games

Post by LuxuryJesper » 23 May 2020, 21:05

N_Faker wrote:
23 May 2020, 20:59
LuxuryJesper wrote:
23 May 2020, 20:49
What do you mean with "by design"?
Tied games are impossible in most board games. And those in which it is possible, usually has many tiebreakers.
Nahh, I wouldn't like that. Players should agree on a tie - not having it forced upon them

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sprockitz
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Re: Unfair rules at draw games

Post by sprockitz » 24 May 2020, 04:06

if you are agreeing on a tie or a tie is 'forced' it is nonetheless a tie.

if it is a tie that means both players played equally well, which means that your ratings should move closer to each other.

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