Convention 2p game : clue 2 first

[qpenguin]

If your partner has 1-2-5-5-2 and you have a useless hand (or you have all 1s of the same color on chop so the other player is waiting for you to discard) - what do you do?
5 first - makes it seem like the rest is useless - a 2 is lost.
1 first - the other player plays a 1. Now you either use 2 and hope that the other player won't discard or use 5 and the other player thinks he can discard and the other card is the same card as you need to save it the next turn.
2 first - as it makes sense to save 2s in 2p, you can give 2 first and the other player can be cautious - using a clue on you as well. Then you use 1 to make the partner play and then a 5 and all cards are saved.

You could come up with several different cases like this. 1B-2Y-4R-5B-4R
1-2 order will probably make the player discard 4R and then you can't save one of the cards.
1-5-4 will make you lose 2Y.
2-1-5 will ask the other player NOT to discard right away as you might need to save more cards. So he clues something back, plays 1 then discards 4R and then you can clue 4 as your 4th clue, saving all essential cards.

Any other clue combination does not really make the other player NOT discard in case you have a useless hand.

If you have established 2 first as a caution clue, it can help you kickstart the flow of the game faster. It helps you both use 2-3 clues to mark everything that is useful for the next 4-5 turns and the following discards are relatively safer.

Building on top of that:
2 first then 1 is a usual play.
2 first then 5 can mean "please discard - you have a duplicate on chop".
2 first then marking nothing can also mean that you want the opponent to discard for whatever reason.
5 first can also mean that the chop is useless for now.
1 first can mean that you want the player to play, probably the rest is not immediately important (you can mark the 5s later when the 1s are played).
1 first then 2 can mean play left 2 next. This will speed up the game and you don't have to use a color clue on the 2 later, saving clues as well.
1 first then 5 can mean you might want to save more cards after the next discard. Or you want to pre-save 5 and when you discard later and the chop in the partner's hand happens to be what you just discarded, you can save that chop without losing the 5.

There are so many common patterns that happen in 2p games that you want to prepare for and prevent. Over hundreds of games you'll start seeing that some preventative moves will help out in the long run - conserving clues (don't need to give every clue ASAP when you think you can mark multiple cards at a time later) and preventing double discard situations from happening

So... If you need to save 3 different numbered cards, using 2 first offers you one grace turn where the other player does not suddenly discard the chop card that is important in the long run. You can not really do it with 1-5-2 or 5-1-2 order.

I disagree there. Your argument hinges on first cue 2 as the 'cautionary' clue.

One could argue for first cue 5 as the 'cautionary' clue OR the first chop cue as the 'cautionary' clue. Either of these 'conventions' are logical and widely used too (the former more than the later). Cueing 5 first (if caution is indicated) also have the benefit of should player decide to discard their chop, only a non-unique card will be discarded.

[ozymandias_]

I'm happy to stall if I receive chop clue. Otherwise my intuitive sense is that gains from efficiency/ability to clue new cards outweighs any unlikely 1 2 4 5 4 hand you can dream up. Ofc can chop save 2 at any later point.

[Stroom]

I disagree there. Your argument hinges on first cue 2 as the 'cautionary' clue.

One could argue for first cue 5 as the 'cautionary' clue OR the first chop cue as the 'cautionary' clue. Either of these 'conventions' are logical and widely used too (the former more than the later). Cueing 5 first (if caution is indicated) also have the benefit of should player decide to discard their chop, only a non-unique card will be discarded.

Everything here is purely about the initial 4-6 clues in the game. The important bit is when the other player might want to discard after receiving a clue. I am trying to base this on the most basic logical ways. How can you maximize what all your clues say to the other player?

You want to save 2s as much as possible so at the beginning you should do it somehow. Also, you have to get the ball rolling so you need to clue 1s. And finally you want to save the unique cards which at the start of the game are 5s. You play cards from 1 to 5 so 2 is actually "more important" than 5 in the first turn. Also, it would help a lot if both players do not discard on the first turn to allow each other give enough clues to save all the important cards. BUT if you could give a clue that makes the other player discard sooner, it would help conserving clues. Both players should have that viewpoint.

2 first marks very important cards but as the unique 5s are not marked, the other player should get a caution alert. 5 first doesn't do much in the sense of getting the game going. You mark the unique cards. Logically it could mean that you do not have 1s or your chop is bad. Yes, you could say same about the 2 but there is no reason to have 2-5 or 5-2 have the same meaning of caution. As I said before, you want to maximize the "language" of what each clue means.

5R-1R-2X-2B-5B
5 first, (other player uses a clue), then 1 (play) then 2 could end up with the other player drawing a 5 after playing 1 and you need to save a 5 not a 2.
2 first, (other player uses a clue), then 1 (play) then 5 is a better way as even if the other player draws a 5, you have used clues in a way that your 3rd clue can mark what can be the only possible unique card at the moment.
In case the left 2 is the same color as the 1s the player has, this allows you to use 1-2 to indicate a play on the left 2. So 1-2-5 makes the other player play 1 and 2 and then your 5 clue marks all unique. You used 3 clues, got 2 plays. With 2-1-5 or 5-1-2 or 5-2-1 you would have to use a color clue on top.

5 first - this depends heavily whether the 5s are. If on chop - sure, maybe it's important to be cautious. If not on chop - why not start with 1/2 clue? Starting with lower numbers would be a better indicator that there is something else that is useful. You could mark 5s later when there is immediate danger of the other player discarding. You should not have to think that the other player is going to discard on the first turn unless you use a clue that indicates this.

5 clue marks all immediately unique cards. 2 first doesn't. Which allows discarding as a reaction? 5 as the definitely unique are marked.

Overall, you would want to get as many different combinations of clues to mean as many different things. 5 first being a caution clue blocks using some other combinations. 5 first should rather be an indication that the other player can immediately discard if he wants to. 2 first is not as clear cut to allow immediate discard. Especially as 2-1 or 1-2 would allow speeding up playing the low numbered cards.

[Stroom]

I'm happy to stall if I receive chop clue. Otherwise my intuitive sense is that gains from efficiency/ability to clue new cards outweighs any unlikely 1 2 4 5 4 hand you can dream up. Ofc can chop save 2 at any later point.

There are no unlikely hands. Everything can be possible. And over many games these situations will happen but you can mitigate them with clever order of clues.
With 4s, it is very likely that players will let a 4 card be discarded only to have that same 4 on their chop... or a bit further in a position where the other player has to sacrifice something else (next to a 5 and other unique card).

You have to think ahead more than 1 turn. A chop clue can only save one additional card but as most players think ahead, a chop clue out of nowhere should not mean that you have to save the next card too. Otherwise you just waste more clues.

[ozymandias_]

I'm happy to stall if I receive chop clue. Otherwise my intuitive sense is that gains from efficiency/ability to clue new cards outweighs any unlikely 1 2 4 5 4 hand you can dream up. Ofc can chop save 2 at any later point.

There are no unlikely hands. Everything can be possible. And over many games these situations will happen but you can mitigate them with clever order of clues.
With 4s, it is very likely that players will let a 4 card be discarded only to have that same 4 on their chop... or a bit further in a position where the other player has to sacrifice something else (next to a 5 and other unique card).

You have to think ahead more than 1 turn. A chop clue can only save one additional card but as most players think ahead, a chop clue out of nowhere should not mean that you have to save the next card too. Otherwise you just waste more clues.

Obviously we're talking about the opening... imo Smallman seems obviously right on this.

[Stroom]

Obviously we're talking about the opening... imo Smallman seems obviously right on this.

I have seen how you play. Not convinced. I can compare several hands to show what is statistically better.

[Wreckage]

I don't think you should be LOCKED into 1s first or 2s first. 1s first usually works best, especially if there are multiple 1s. But in the examples Stroom gave the 2 first is better. In each of his examples the 2 is lost if not clued first.

Starting hand X X 1 2 5
Clue 1 first, then save 5, the 2 is lost. So 2 first is better.

Starting hand X 1 2 X 5
Clue 1 first, then save 5, then save 2 when it's gets to chop. 1 clue first is better.

The reason 1 first is better in the second example is the early save of the 2 might be a wasted clue. After they draw two cards, there is a 40% chance there will be another 2. Also the matching 1 might be on the table by then, or the 2 can be splashed by a color clue, and not require a token to save it.

[Stroom]

Sure, it depends heavily on the partners hand. But the general rule of 2-1-5 or 1-2-5 where you do not mark chop allows quicker plays if 1-2 means play left 2 too. But if you mark 2 on chop, it means save so you can use 1 then 2/5 then 5/2 as well. Marking the same card twice isn't usually a problem as you have to give color clues further down the line, which allows you to show that the other player can discard one of those cards.

Everything is situational. I am mostly talking about the default case what is useful for most starting hands. 1-2-5 is a good fast start. 5-2-1 or 1-5-2 often isn't.

[qpenguin]

5R-1R-2X-2B-5B
5 first, (other player uses a clue), then 1 (play) then 2 could end up with the other player drawing a 5 after playing 1 and you need to save a 5 not a 2.
2 first, (other player uses a clue), then 1 (play) then 5 is a better way as even if the other player draws a 5, you have used clues in a way that your 3rd clue can mark what can be the only possible unique card at the moment.
In case the left 2 is the same color as the 1s the player has, this allows you to use 1-2 to indicate a play on the left 2. So 1-2-5 makes the other player play 1 and 2 and then your 5 clue marks all unique. You used 3 clues, got 2 plays. With 2-1-5 or 5-1-2 or 5-2-1 you would have to use a color clue on top.

Sure, you are giving an example (the new card is 5) which has grossly 4/49 = 8% chance of happening in a multicolour game.
Now, in the same game, the possibility that the new card is a non-duplicate 2, and not 2R is grossly 6/49 = 12%.

In other words, 5-1-2 has 8% chance of dropping the old 2, and 2-1-5 has 12% chance of dropping the new 2.


Anyway, I'm not too fussed about the efficacy achieved in either of these conventions, because the effect is IMO small. However, I do have a problem with people over interpreting the clue 2 first method, eg clue 2 first to save, clue 2 later to play. If we agreed to save 2s (and IMO 2s should be saved in a 2p game), then a chop 2 is a save clue regardless if I clue earlier or later.

[Blacktango]

On BGA we are playing heavy finesses. I mean everything can trigger them.

I understand allowing the 2 chop save could be a good convention adjustment (especially in 3 player game), but if you clue me an off chop and non playable 2, I will instantly answer trying to play a 1 in finesse position.