ELO configuration

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sergut
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Joined: 19 January 2021, 00:09

Re: ELO configuration

Post by sergut »

As Adavayn and MoiMagnus and others have said, the concept of ELO itself does not make sense for cooperative games(*).

IMHO cooperative games like The Crew should just have something like a dash (e.g. [ ELO - ]) showing that ELO calculations do not make sense for that game, in the same way that e.g. international ranking and trophies do not make sense for all games.

The current system just shows that one has played a lot, but that information is already contained in the "X games played, Y games won, % victories" description. ELO does not add a bit of information to that, and that is why I think it would be better to remove it to reduce confusion.


(*) Theoretically, one could calculate ELO for teams of players (but that would only make sense if people played with the same crew a lot of times --- which is not the case) or assume that a player's ELO is some sort of average over all the crews they have played with (but then we get a lot of toxic ELO-maximising behaviours as explained in detail in this thread); in practice, it does not work. ELO is designed to pair-match players of the same level in competitive games, especially 2-player games. It simply does not work for co-op.
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Romain672
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Joined: 05 April 2016, 13:53

Re: ELO configuration

Post by Romain672 »

sergut wrote: 03 August 2021, 16:02 The current system just shows that one has played a lot, but that information is already contained in the "X games played, Y games won, % victories" description. ELO does not add a bit of information to that, and that is why I think it would be better to remove it to reduce confusion.
Elo is a lot more visible than the number of games played: one is immediately visible, the other one require the mouse to be put on the 'elo bar' or the profile to be checked.
That's why without other thing to show the experience of someone else (like knowing if it's it's 1st/10th/100th game), I'm against a basic remove.
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qwertasdfg
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Joined: 17 June 2013, 18:26

Re: ELO configuration

Post by qwertasdfg »

Romain672 wrote: 04 August 2021, 09:09
sergut wrote: 03 August 2021, 16:02 The current system just shows that one has played a lot, but that information is already contained in the "X games played, Y games won, % victories" description. ELO does not add a bit of information to that, and that is why I think it would be better to remove it to reduce confusion.
Elo is a lot more visible than the number of games played: one is immediately visible, the other one require the mouse to be put on the 'elo bar' or the profile to be checked.
That's why without other thing to show the experience of someone else (like knowing if it's it's 1st/10th/100th game), I'm against a basic remove.
But that's the thing: it doesn't even tell experience.
Someone with elo of 300 could've just played mission one 300 times. Whereas someone with elo 6 could've played the whole thing through six times
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sergut
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Joined: 19 January 2021, 00:09

Re: ELO configuration

Post by sergut »

Romain672 wrote: 04 August 2021, 09:09 Elo is a lot more visible than the number of games played: one is immediately visible, the other one require the mouse to be put on the 'elo bar' or the profile to be checked.
That's why without other thing to show the experience of someone else (like knowing if it's it's 1st/10th/100th game), I'm against a basic remove.
I understand the argument. I disagree. :-)

I prefer to be forced to do extra clicks to have useful information than to be easily provided misleading or confusing information. I think such an approach produces better outcomes. :-)

That is why I suggest the ELO rating for The Crew to be a dash (or some other non-number): it will produce surprise and it will act as a reminder that BGA does not have a measure of how "good" a player is at The Crew. If someone still wants to have some information to decide whom to play with, they can look at the number of games.

My 2p.
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Romain672
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Joined: 05 April 2016, 13:53

Re: ELO configuration

Post by Romain672 »

qwertasdfg wrote: 04 August 2021, 09:27But that's the thing: it doesn't even tell experience.
Someone with elo of 300 could've just played mission one 300 times. Whereas someone with elo 6 could've played the whole thing through six times
In theory yes. But in practice, that still give a good idea. I don't want to differenciate 42 from 43, but I want to differenciate 5 from 200.

I'm not saying what is going on is best, it's not. But just removing elo look bad to me.
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maelstrom07
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Joined: 16 April 2021, 03:35

Re: ELO configuration

Post by maelstrom07 »

What is the current setup for ELO for The Crew?
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Tisaac
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Joined: 26 August 2014, 21:28

Re: ELO configuration

Post by Tisaac »

maelstrom07 wrote: 16 September 2021, 01:54 What is the current setup for ELO for The Crew?
None. You earn 1 ELO when quiting a table.
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Wreckage
Posts: 287
Joined: 18 January 2017, 02:10

Re: ELO configuration

Post by Wreckage »

1. Don't copy hanabi elo, as it has far more complaints than positive feedback, and it's very broken.

2. For those who support the idea of 0 loss, we might as well not change it at all. If you always go up and never down, then the players with the most games will have the highest scores, just like now.

3. Although I like the idea of more elo for playing higher missions, there are people who will exploit starting (and ending) on missions that give a better score.

4. Adavayn ideas for elo are interesting, and maybe the best suggestions so far.

5. A suggestion that some might not like, but could stop players exploiting easy ELO would be: if you gain elo only on campaigns that start from mission 1, then take into account the # of missions completed minus failed attempts.

6. If you do start a new system, I think a reset of all elo scores would make sense.
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Ursula1972
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Joined: 29 March 2020, 15:17

Re: ELO configuration

Post by Ursula1972 »

I would really want something like:

Highest mission in a whole game completed:
between 1-10 = 1 ELO
between 11-20 = 5 ELO
between 21-30 = 10 ELO
between 31-40 = 15 ELO
between 41-50 = 20 ELO

The problem with this ELO is that when you know the game you have to play 100 games before some people would play with you in higher missions because of the system to not invite Beginners and apprentices. If you can climb up quicker you don't have that problem anymore. You have proven to know the game.
pjt33
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Joined: 05 April 2020, 15:35

Re: ELO configuration

Post by pjt33 »

Wreckage wrote: 19 September 2021, 01:42 5. A suggestion that some might not like, but could stop players exploiting easy ELO would be: if you gain elo only on campaigns that start from mission 1, then take into account the # of missions completed minus failed attempts.
You're right: I don't like it. It penalises people who want to play the interesting missions.
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