Honest discussion about engine use (long post)

[finec]

I mainly came to BGA to learn new games, but I am a chess master (FIDE elo about 2300) so I thought I would also check out the chess action. In looking over the games of the top Elo players here, it is very obvious that there is extensive use of engines. As far as I can tell from reading the rules, it is not illegal to get support from engines or databases etc., as long as you are not just using them as a bot. That makes BGA similar to the major international organization for correspondence chess (the ICCF), but with an interesting twist: the real-time games here are fast but not “too fast”. That is, if you set up an engine (or, better, multiple engines), you can use the various outputs to decide on plans and moves. This is called “advanced chess” (or “centaur chess”) and can pose some interesting challenges. I have been doing it myself this month and have had some truly fascinating games with others who are clearly doing the same thing. I do not know of another place on the web where one can find games at this sweet-spot time control with other “centaurs”. Note that good centaur chess does not just mean parroting an engine at some fixed-search depth. You will certainly be able to beat humans that way, but not other centaurs. The secret sauce is in combining multiple elements (engines, databases) with human executive function to steer the game where other centaurs might struggle. It is the difference between driving a car (centaur) and running a race (human).

So what is the problem? Some people get angry about this, even sometimes when they are clearly using an engine themselves! Indeed, I have already played several games with people who played well above world-champion level, finding all kinds of non-human engine moves, only to accuse me of “cheating” after the game. As I said, I am a real-life master so I can tell they are using engines too. It seems like those of us using engines should stop pretending and just embrace the fun of centaur chess!

Now, what if you want to just have some fun human games at BGA? No problem! First of all, be aware that anyone with a rating above 700 is either using an engine or is honest-to-goodness super-Grandmaster strength. (I am guessing there are not many GMs here but who knows? If you are over 700 without an engine, please challenge Magnus Carlsen for the title!) Over 500 is probably a strong master at least. There may be a few here in that class without engines, but not many. As I said earlier, I am around 2300 elo FIDE and on other no-engine sites, and I don’t think I would crack 500 here without an engine. In the 300-500 category it seems to me to be a mixed bag based on my experience so far. Sometimes I get someone in that range that matches one of my engines almost exactly, and other times it is clearly a human. Below 300 has so far seemed mostly engine-free. So if you want a casual game of chess without engines, stick to players under 300. If you are a strong chess player who wants no-engine games against other strong players, well, you are not going to find that right now on BGA. But there are many places on the internet to play chess where engine use is indeed illegal, and if you are indeed a strong player you will already know about those places.


Finally, a plea for us to be all out in the open about this. Let’s have fun with this (relatively) unique aspect of BGA. Clearly, chess is not the main point of this site, but the opportunity to play competitive real-time centaur chess gives BGA another cool thing to keep people here. I have take the first “openness” step by posting about my centaur style in the “about me” part of my profile. Also, if anyone ever asks me in the chat “what is your elo”, I will tell them “2300 but also using engines for assistance.” If you don’t want to play with engines and we are early in the game, I will be happy to mutually abandon the game with no penalty for anyone.

Happy to continue the discussion below. And if you believe that I am mistaken about the rules and centaur chess is not permitted, then please point me to the place where you saw that. I looked hard but did not find anything.

[ringersoll]

I would like you to try Hive.
The designer has described it as 'chess without a board'
I would love to hear the opinion of a true Chess Master!
PS - check out my YouTube channel www.YouTube.com/PlayHiveLikeAChampion
THANNKS!

[finec]

Nice to meet you! I have tried Hive and I like it a lot. Indeed, I am planning to start playing Hive here on BGA very soon. I already have your book (which is excellent!) and also the new one by Schultz, which I have not,had a chance to read yet. Thank you for all your contributions to the Hive community.

I should say that I do not think,that human chess is dead at all. If fact, the engines have shown us just how much we really don’t know about the game. My main point in this thread is that “centaur chess” is its own kind of thing, and can allow some kind-blowing games at the BGA real-time speed.

[RicardoRix]

You sound well informed, and I have no reason to doubt you.

But if the only problem, is other people that are using engines calling other people cheats, then that's not a real problem.

As you mention, chess players know about this kind of thing, and if they want high level chess then they're going to be playing elsewhere.

[Ty-Guy6]

That's a great viewpoint, and thank you for introducing me to the idea of centaur chess, which I don't recall hearing about before. I looked around for BGA's chess rules, but this site has so many games, I think they rely mainly on rules from other sites, or summarized by local wiki editors. I would call this a very casual chess environment.

However, the FIDE rules are linked in the "How to Play?" section for the game, and those define cheating as getting external advice, electronic or otherwise. Isn't that also what's generally accepted as cheating in IRL board gaming, which would be the predecessor to online board gaming? I think it's at least implied that using engines here could be considered cheating.

That said, I don't know how BGA moderators would view all of this, and I somehow doubt that you'd be likely to be penalized for it. If I were in the game, I'd always appreciate an open attitude about whether the players would be using powerful outside resources such as bots. Before I read this thread, I was going on the assumption that I wasn't even supposed to be using an opening guide once the game had begun. I'll probably stick to that, (without imposing it on anyone else,) since, after all, I'm just playing for the enjoyment and mental exercise.

[finec]

You make a good point about the link to the FIDE rules. But my sense is that they link to those rules mostly just to have an official place to point for how the pieces move, because the actual implementation on BGA is not consistent with those rules (e.g., draw offers on opposing players time, rules about time forfeits,etc.). In the absence of an official ruling from a moderator and any attempt to police engine use by other players, the advice I have received here and in chats leads me to the following plan:

In the hope of getting some good centaur games, but not having unwanted games between centaurs and humans, I will write in the chat before the first move that

“I am playing as a centaur (= part human, part machine), using engines and databases for support. If you are also a centaur, then let’s have a good game! If you are playing using only your human skills and you would prefer not playing with a centaur, then we can abandon the game now with no penalty for either player. If you want to learn more about centaur chess, please see the thread I started about engine use in the chess forum.”

In addition, I will try to organize some events and clubs on BGA to give people a chance to try this out with other interested players.

Thanks to everyone for their comments so far. I will check back in this thread to continue the discussion with anyone so inclined. In the meantime, here is a link to an article on the subject

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/centaur- ... _b_6383606

[N_Faker]

“I am playing as a centaur, using engines and databases for support. If you are also a centaur, then let’s have a good game! If you are playing using only your human skills and you would prefer not playing with a centaur, then we can abandon the game now with no penalty for either player. If you want to learn more about centaur chess, please see the thread I started about engine use in the chess forum.”

For most it would sound like you are claiming to have four hooved legs.

[finec]

Just added the parenthetical “(part human, part machine)” to try to be less confusing about my hooves!

[N_Faker]

I am playing as a centaur (= part human, part machine)...

Cyborg centaur!

I've played some chess myself in the past, though I never encountered 'centaur chess' before. It would probably be clearer to avoid mentioning centaur altogether?

[finec]

You may be right. But “centaur chess” is what it is called, and now people can learn more about it if they want with a quick Google search. I could make the description more complete, but my feeling is that it is pretty long already and people don’t want to read a treatise just to decide if they want to play I think the discussion engines will give everyone the main idea.