Dragon's Lair -- your feelings?

[Lethargic Socket]

This certainly isn't a bug, as BGA has implemented the card properly. But it quickly has become apparent to me that Dragon's Lair is a distinctly unbalanced card: you can buy it on your first turn, and for no input thereafter get 2-4 gold per turn out of it, making it very likely you will win even without ever playing any dragons -- in fact, I've seen players use it to win without ever playing any cards from their deck. I've never seen the person who gets it first lose, if they aren't a novice and know basically what they are doing.

How do others feel about it? Do you dread seeing it at the start of the game, because you know you have to buy it or lose? Or do you disagree, and find it only situationally advantageous (say, if it can be used to purchase a resource generator like Hanging Gardens, Obelisk, or Alchemist's Tower)?

If you could tweak it to make it more balanced, how would you do so? Make it too expensive to buy Round 1? Make it cheaper, but require a dragon to be tapped as part of the cost? Require an input (any input!) to get the 2 gold per turn? I'd love to hear your ideas!

[RicardoRix]

It certainly seems like a short cut to thinking. The same seems to be true for the 1:1 Essence->Gold cards.

What VP's do you get typically by round 4? It would seem like without any attacks that round 4 is where the majority of games will end.

1Gold == 2 essence.
It's 12 essence for 4 per turn, including the 1st turn which is very good but not amazing. But the re-tap is where it burns brightly. So the reanimate card will net you 3 resource.

But if you go all out and spend all your cards, then you simply gain 2 gold, and then I use my Witch and Elvish bow, and you're stuck forever. Maybe I can re-animate my bow quicker and more often than you can.

I think the biggest problem with this game is that cards can be discarded for 2*, which means that more often in a game they become more useful to be discarded, and they help circumvent the particular type of essence gaining. Like choosing Research is MUCH better than choosing either of the essence gainers. You just draw a card, discard a card and get a free 3 resource transmutate and to cycle a card for the benefit, the only down-size is that it costs for 2 turns, big-whoop.

[BoardNoremac]

I played quite a few Res Arcana and this strategy really doesnt sound that good in general. Artifacts for the most part are better value in my experience than that.

Now if you have Dragons on the other hand it would be a great strategy.

I really do enjoy Res Arcana but imo the worse balance comes from the heroes since you just get 2 pick from 2 random ones and that's it. With draft you can easily get a decent amount if good artifacts and create a plan.

Some heroes imo just dont feel great. Maybe it is different in 3+ player games but there were just a lot of heroes I didnt enjoy.

I am really looking forward to more expansions to hopefully add more variety

[Sohel]

Dragon Lair is perfectly balanced.
Actually, the card is not too powerful.
If the opposing player additionally lets the DL player get an alchemist tower... well then its their own fault really.
Other than that I must say that I have never lost to dragon lair before.

[mOCHU035]

Dragon's lair + Going 1st in a 2p certainly seems like a really hard to stop combo in my experience. I don't know if that makes it imbalanced though.

Dragon Lair is perfectly balanced.
Actually, the card is not too powerful.
If the opposing player additionally lets the DL player get an alchemist tower... well then its their own fault really.
Other than that I must say that I have never lost to dragon lair before.

You have certainly lost exactly to turn 1 dragon's lair good sir.

https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=146263553

[sheldortheconquerer]

Depending on the draft, sometime the opponent can go for an early attack to mess up the lair player if they realize this is happening in time. Most notable is that an elvish bow played before the dragon player discards their last card stops anyone other than healer, witch+reanimate+horn of plenty, or sac dagger/corrupt altar (could cleverly pay gold, then sac) from getting the lair round 1. Note that with research/scholar they could still get the lair but they’d be risking the opponent going for the lair before them. I tend to go for the dragon’s lair start if my starting hand is fairly weak.

[sheldortheconquerer]

I think it may also be worth noting that catacombs of the dead is pretty competitive with dragon's lair in terms of value generated by activating it (every 4 gold usually gives you about 2 points with some minor beneficial effect added on), generates an additional black per turn, can be used as a moderately inefficient black sink, and in round 1 you can buy both an elvish bow and catacombs of the dead (you need a mage that produces black or red paired with research; scholar and transmuter have more item flexibility). The main ways this comparison would tip towards dragon's lair are if
1) The gold is important compared to just points (either the player running dragon's lair gets better income with their monuments/alchemists tower or you need to deny high point value monuments to an opponent running athanor or philosophers stone)
2) dragon synergy (a combination of the bonus value from activating dragons lair to store 2 gold instead of gaining it and the possibility of sacrificing inexpensive dragons for a profit, the most common reason to rate dragon's lair above catacombs)
3) the possibility your opponent drafted treant and will get a huge turn 1 payday from you going for catacombs.

FWIW I do consider catacombs and dragon's lair to be the two strongest places of power.

[Pr-Somni]

I really think Res Arcana is a game all bout situations. Some elements seem strong in some and useless in others. It is the case about Dragon's Lair. It depends so much of the elements of the actual game ; what you have beside is really game breaker.

Moreover Tom Lehmann is really known for the perfect balance of his games.

[Sohel]

Dragon's lair + Going 1st in a 2p certainly seems like a really hard to stop combo in my experience. I don't know if that makes it imbalanced though.

Dragon Lair is perfectly balanced.
Actually, the card is not too powerful.
If the opposing player additionally lets the DL player get an alchemist tower... well then its their own fault really.
Other than that I must say that I have never lost to dragon lair before.

You have certainly lost exactly to turn 1 dragon's lair good sir.

https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=146263553

I can't load the game, however, this was probably one of my first games.
Since I lost probably 2 games out of my last 50, and I definitely have faced turn 1 DL frequently, I'm sure there is no problem with the card's balance.

[Sohel]

Dragon's lair + Going 1st in a 2p certainly seems like a really hard to stop combo in my experience. I don't know if that makes it imbalanced though.

Dragon Lair is perfectly balanced.
Actually, the card is not too powerful.
If the opposing player additionally lets the DL player get an alchemist tower... well then its their own fault really.
Other than that I must say that I have never lost to dragon lair before.

You have certainly lost exactly to turn 1 dragon's lair good sir.

https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=146263553

I can't load the game, however, this was probably one of my first games.
Since I lost probably 2 games out of my last 50, and I definitely have faced turn 1 DL frequently, I'm sure there is no problem with the card's balance.

I need to edit my comment:
Appearently, philosopher stone was removed from 2 player drafting. Now one quite important counter measure vs Dragon lair is missing. Since this change, I experienced that DL is a lot stronger and looks rather problematic in more games than before. There are still ways to win against it, but having removed one of them really makes DL dominate the meta.