Suggestion: Remove New Olympia from Competitive Play

[tap-zbyna]

Hi,

I totally agree, new Olympia is a joke of a wonder. It has no useful ability at all. I play it with no wonder stage built, with 18 cards used. If I compare it to new Babylon or Halikarnassos or old Gizah and Rhodos, it is definitely the worst wonder of all. Only B side of Alexandria is near with its uselessness, but it is still playable.

The cost of wonder stages of Olympia is high, yet it basically does not help at all. Building 2 cards for free is useless, since you should be playing to have enough resources/money to build anything. It is also luck-based. You can get first hand of age filled with cards you have resources for. Or you can buy a card for free, but is useless (like a philosophers guild when your neighbours are Rhodos and Gizah).

Compare it to old A side - you could build ANY card for free once per age. Much stronger.

And the point of "build first card of each color for free" is lost on me. It is a second stage. So basically - you obviously have build your first brown card, probably first red card. Grey cards are for free. Yellow cards are very cheap (ok, you can build free Caravansery even if there is no wood. It can happen.) so you probably will not use it. It can be fine to build Aquaduct for free, but we are talking about second age - you should have got some blue card built in that time. Green cards are weak with Olympia, so you do not need it and there are guilds. Ok, guilds are expensive and it can be helpful to have an option to build first one for free.

In the end you see there are basically 3 cards the stage can be used for...

New Olympia needs remake desperately.

[Ze Monstah]

[Wonderful Plays]

I don't think Olympia remake will happen in the next few years.
Meanwhile I will encourage you to look at Olympia from a different perspective. It's the wonder that distinguishes absolute top players from the rest, because those players are still able to score good results with it.

I personally think it's a little bit more challenging, but I am usually very happy to get it as it means there are a lot of options and I have to get creative, when I play.

[bluemutant]

From one person's perspective, new Alexandria is the (Old) Babylon. Bleghh

[TomInBC]

Olympia is the new... (old) Babylon.

Its far, FAR worse than the old Babylon! Old babylon's center A side (any research) was a LOT better than Olympia's A side center. Old Babylon B side was competitive with the best boards because of the center double play.

I don't think Olympia remake will happen in the next few years.
Meanwhile I will encourage you to look at Olympia from a different perspective. It's the wonder that distinguishes absolute top players from the rest, because those players are still able to score good results with it.

I personally think it's a little bit more challenging, but I am usually very happy to get it as it means there are a lot of options and I have to get creative, when I play.

I would be very interested to know if top players really do get good results with Olympia - any top players out there, please chime in with some statistics from your play! Its just by far the worst wonder in all ways: it doesn't have more options, it has less, because no matter what its board is substandard.

[Wonderful Plays]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqisML5JBWY
At the end of the video you can see some of my stats. Olympia A was the best performing wonder for me in high elo environment. The size was small, but Olympia still gets job done in 4P better than some others. In the video you can see that it was last for me in 3P, but that has changed since then and it is the penultimate now.

I think I'm going to sound like a broken record, but there are situation where with good play you can make stuff with Olympia that you cannot with any other wonder. It's not the best, but it is playable and I think it also brings a lot of joy to some players (it does for me).

[tarquaeron]

I'm not a high-level player (310-320 before my current losing streak with Olympia), but I just completely fail to understand how to play Olympia. I've had it 4 times in the last 5 games, and placed last 4 times ! I play 4P almost exclusively. I tried the Side A brown + military only until 3rd age, and also side B. It's just extremely frustrating I have to say. Even before this losing streak my impression was already that Olympia was the weakest wonder, or at least hardest to play, which is the same thing.

I don't understand people here in the thread who say, good players can win even with Olympia, therefore it is balanced. Your argument precisely proves that Olympia is broken. A player with high relative advantage to opponents can probably win without using his wonder ... I would love to be proven wrong by the statistics. Would be nice if there was a way to get global boardgamearena stats. Sample must be huge so statistical analysis would be significant.

[SportsClown]

Your problem with Olympia is that it requires a clear plan and an execution without any deviations, but your style of play is loose - this works well with flexible wonders such as Ephesos or Hali and sometimes with Babylon, but you will struggle mightily not only with Olympia, but also with Alex and Gizah. For example, this game: https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=227296476 . The setup is very favorable to you. Even before the game starts, just by looking at your neighbors you know that Hali and Alex are in green and Baby is in red. Thus, your plan here should be to build a lot of browns, so green Hali and Alex buy them from you, dominate the military, while Alex and Hali fight for green, and play blues if an opportunity comes up, but instead what do you do?

Age 1

Hand 1 - Not taking Excavation is a critical mistake. Excavation helps you with the second stage, Alex and Hali both need bricks for their first stages and are very likely to pay not only for it, but also for stone in Age 3 as well, as they are not likely to play a lot of it and it is needed in large quantities. Your Excavation also stretches Baby across the board, as these are exact resources Baby needs. It allows you to play baths, it prepares you well for the most important guilds in your position, such as the Philosopher's etc. Remember that there are two guard towers in 4p and your green neighbors are not likely to play them.

Hand 3  - Here ideally you should have taken Guard Tower after playing Excavation hand 1, but even the way you played you should have taken Lumber Yard - wood is a cornerstone of any red game, which you should be playing in this position.

Hand 5 - Again not taking Lumber Yard is a mistake. Even a clay pool would be better here than your trading post towards Hali.

Hand 6 - Ideally, here you would play baths for free after taking Excavation hand 1, but, if you pay, you pay for Barracks to ensure your military lead in case of an unfavorable card order Age 2.
 
Age 2:

Hand 1 - Aqueduct is a ginormous misplay here. Ideally, you play Foundry to help with your first stage+ore is also critical for the red game you should be playing. Stables are also ok here, but your resources are weak and there is no military emergency, as your neighbors are in green. Blues are simply not enough in 7 Wonders, unless you are really really good with them (for example, there is only one top player, who is strong in the blue game - Masca).

Hand 2 - Hiding School is simply unacceptable here - 3 players are competing for greens in a 4 player game - this is the most favorable setup for you - you do not need to hide any greens, as your opponents will just drain each other. In fact, hiding greens encourages Alexandria to play military which you do not want at all costs, as your goal is to dominate the military. Instead, a heavily green Alexandria is the best thing which could happen to you now, as it will pass you juicy cards Age 3, but at the same time will be prevented from hitting a green jackpot by Baby and Hali. Ideally, you would play Training Ground here after playing Foundry from the previous hand, but even the way you played Forum or Bazaar are much better to build a yellow economy.

I stopped watching after that, as 6 out of 8 hands were misplayed, and it is a gg at this point, but most likely what happens is that, because you do not play military resources and pass military cards, you get red-sandwiched. If you will think carefully about your plan going into the game, your results with Olympia will improve tremendously. 

[tarquaeron]

Thanks for actually taking a look at one of my games in so much detail ! I don't think I've ever looked at a replay of any game on boardgamearena ever.
The only thing I would disagree with, is that it's not clear at all that Alexandria will go green and Baby will go red. Why would Baby go red?? If I were Alexandria here, I would definitely not go green, because I already expect Baby and Hali to be going for it. The side Alexandria chose is very versatile.

And y, this was probably not my best game for sure. I don't know why I played guard tower first move. But isn't what you're saying that "Olympia requires a clear plan and execution" (I'm adding here: more so than other wonders) exactly my point? Given 2 equally well-played games or two players with exactly equal skill, Olympia will fare worse? I guess what you're saying is that it doesn't matter at my level, and all that matters for balance is what 500+lvl players are doing? I would agree for any game that's truly played competitively like dota2, starcraft2 or warcraft3, but I'm not sure it applies as much to a purposefully not-so-serious and short boardgame such as 7 wonders.

[frogstar_A]

In 4 players olympia is weak but with 5 players it's not so bad and I am usually quite happy to have it and win with it often