High number of doubles explained!

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dschingis27
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High number of doubles explained!

Post by dschingis27 »

If you think that the dices show too many doubles and you have a bit of interest in statistics, I recommend to check out this post.

One important note: The number of doubles in a Backgammon game can NOT be modeled accurately with a binomial distibution. For a binomial distribution, you assume a fixed number of trials (dice rolls). But in a Backgammon game, the number of dice rolls will actually depend on the number of doubles. Higher proportion of doubles will be associated with shorter games.

In games where lot of doubles happened, you skipped more pips per turn, hence games will tend to be shorter and therefore a higher proportion of doubles will not be as rare as derived from a binomial model. Of course the relation between game length and number of doubles is more complex in reality, it even depends on play style. It is really hard if not impossible to find a proper probabilistic model for this.

The variance for proportion of doubles in a Backgamomon game should definitely be higher than indicated from calculations with the binomial distribution.

To make things much more intuitive, let's play a much simpler game: A solo game called "coinflip once or twice":

1st round: You flip a coin, if it shows heads, you win and stop the game. If not, move to 2nd round.
2nd round: You flip the coin again, if it shows heads, you win. If not, you loose the game.

Clearly the game length here depends on the actual results of the coinflips. (In Backgammon, when you roll a double (the higher ones: 3-3, 4-4, 5-5, 6-6), this also simultaneously will usually help you to win the game and usually shortens the game length.)

You can observe a few things when you play the coinflip game 100 times (I use "expect" here in the sense of a probabilistic expected value):
1. You will expect to win 75 of 100 games. You expect to win 50 games in the 1st round and 25 games in the 2nd round.
2. You expect 150 coinflips to happen over the course of 100 games. You expect 75 times to flip heads and 75 times to flip tails. So even though the rules of the game kind of bias towards heads, you still get equal probability of 50% for both outcomes. After all, you perform independent coinflips and each coinflip has 50% probability for either heads or tails.
3. If you calculate the proportion of heads for each of the 100 games, then the expected average of these proportions is 62.5%, not 50%. (You expect 50 of 100 games with only one flip that shows heads, these have 100% heads. 25 of 100 games show 50% heads, and the remaining 25 of 100 games show 0% heads. Taking the average (50*100% + 25*50% + 25*0%) / 100 yields 62.5%)
4. Among all the games that finish after one flip, 100% of flips are heads.
5. Among all the games that finish after two flips, only 25% of flips show heads and 75% of flips show tails.

The 2nd and 3rd point are very interesting. Heads will be shown in 50% of all flips, however, if you look at the average of proportions of heads in all single games, it is much higher than 50%. In the same vein, even though the proportion of doubles in all Backgammon dice rolls will be close to 1/6, that doesn't mean that the average of all final proportions of doubles from single games needs to be 1/6.

The 4th and 5th point show that you cannot simply apply binomial distribution to calculate probabilities for frequencies of heads and tails. You need to consider the characteristics of the game. In the example, short games have higher proportion of heads (100%) while long games have smaller proportion of heads (25%). In Backgammon, short games will tend to have greater proportion of doubles while long games will tend to have smaller proportion of doubles.

Conclusion: All in all, things are more complicated for Backgammon. But the example goes to show that not even the expected value of the proportion of doubles from the Backgammon single game statistics shown by BGA needs to be 1/6. The more interesting parameter would be the variance of these proportions, it should be higher than derived from a simple binomial distribution, making rare events of high proportion of doubles more likely than assumed at first glance.

What can I do if I still suspect the RNG to show too many doubles?
This is easy to investigate in general but tedious/limited on BGA. Pick a large number of played games. For each game, count how many non-double rolls happened until the first double happened. This number should follow a negative binomial distribution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_ ... stribution In particular, the average number of non-doubles until the first double should be 5. We can also count the number of non-double rolls until 2 doubles happened. The average of these should be 10.

Edit: I included 4. and 5. and one paragraph about them to make my main point more clear.
Last edited by dschingis27 on 02 May 2022, 16:32, edited 3 times in total.
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dschingis27
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Re: High number of doubles explained!

Post by dschingis27 »

*bump*
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euklid314
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Re: High number of doubles explained!

Post by euklid314 »

In order to phrase the (correct and precise) analysis of dschingis27 in different words:

If you take a large number of your games (>100) and calculate the double percentage of each game, it is expected that more than half of your games will show a double percentage greater than 16.7%.

But if you weight these double percentages of each of the single games with the number of moves of these games you will end up very close to the expected value of 16.7%.

Note: the BGA statistic page of each player shows his/her percentage of doubles over all his/her games (=number of total doubles/number of total rolls) - this is exactly the above-mentioned weighted average.

Thus, one does not even need to calculate the double percentage over all the games by hand...
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Romain672
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Re: High number of doubles explained!

Post by Romain672 »

If anyone want to calculate the probability himself, read this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =967036289

First, you count the number of doubles and the numbers of non-doubles you get for your game (let said it's 8 doubles and 30 rolls, so 22 non doubles).

You then search on my document the number of rolls '30' which is line 35.
Then you search for number of doubles 8 which is column 'K'.
You read the associated value in K35 which is 15,8.
This mean this should happen every 15,8 games.

You could then for this number either:
- divide that number by the number of games you played on the website
- divide that number by 3 if you counted instead the number of your doubles or the number of opponent doubles

And nearly all the time you should get a number inferior to 1/100.
If you find something superior to it, it doesn't mean the game is flowed (we got some posts on it on the forum), but in exactly one year, it should have happen to 1 person / 100.

Furthermore, in the page 'Probabilities', K35 is associated to 0,063, if you multiply that number by 100, you get the probability: 6,3%.
veggivet
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Re: High number of doubles explained!

Post by veggivet »

This information is quite helpful, thanks! I was wondering if there was a simple way for me to see the average number of doubles rolled by all of my opponents compared to the number of doubles I rolled. I figured that since I am approaching 1000 completed games, those values should be very close from a statistical perspective. Thanks!
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Silene
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Re: High number of doubles explained!

Post by Silene »

veggivet wrote: 27 April 2022, 21:06 This information is quite helpful, thanks! I was wondering if there was a simple way for me to see the average number of doubles rolled by all of my opponents compared to the number of doubles I rolled. I figured that since I am approaching 1000 completed games, those values should be very close from a statistical perspective. Thanks!
I think you need to be premium member to see those stats. Then you can see exactly that if you click on "My statistics for this game" in the games section on your profile page.
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veggivet
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Re: High number of doubles explained!

Post by veggivet »

Is there a way to calculate the odds of one player getting 8 doubles in a random game and the other getting 1? Total of 67 moves. Thanks
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Jellby
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Re: High number of doubles explained!

Post by Jellby »

8 doubles or more in 34 rolls: 19.5%
Exactly 1 double in 33 rolls: 1.6%
Both in the same game (provided the number of rolls is fixed): 0.6%, or once every ~160 games.
You being the one with 1 double: once every ~320 games.

None of these are quite unlikely.
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Silene
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Re: High number of doubles explained!

Post by Silene »

Human brain always tries to find patterns. So when you look at random data, you usually find a pattern or something that is noteworthy about it. So whatever data you have, you could find something special about it and then realize that this outcome was very unlikely and calculate the odds and realize those were very low.
Wherever you shoot your arrow - you can draw the target around the spot that it hits. But that doesn't mean your shot was well-aimed. The arrow had to land SOMEwhere.
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veggivet
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Re: High number of doubles explained!

Post by veggivet »

I realize that. I'm just asking how often that occurrence would be expected to happen. Is it 1 in 1000, or closer to 1 in 500,000?
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