Banlist Discussion!

[Pepikos]

I think it is very hard to evaluate the cards in a draft 10 format. Everyone ends with 5 fields, 5 rooms 15 fences anyway so soms cards may feel stronger than the actually are.

And i agree here, still too used to draft 8 and think it was more fun!

[torvaldur_makan]

Sorry to everyone who wanted Craft Teacher banned before now, I mostly saw people go all-in with the card and fail, or go all-in and succeed with what seemed like very combo reliant hands. I have now seen it succeed, without needing excess support or an all-in game plan. It turns out that you can build guilds and a room early on if you just build a guild that isn't the basketmaker's workshop. Whoops.

Yes. Craft Teacher is too good. Even with mediocre cards it is too good. Just like Begging Student showed us that when occupations are free, they don't have to be that good. Yes you do have to work some for it, but instead you don't get begging cards and the occupations comes earlier. If you only get one of the guilds it is already good. If you get 2-3 guilds, it is stupid.

[alexwjb]

I now think there are three occs that need banning. In order of how strongly I feel about them:

- Freshman
Can be completely broken in 2 card combos (baking course, bread paddle etc). At worst it is very strong (turning sow/bake into sow/free occ). I don't like there being combos that effectively end the game in the first round. (I played Freshman -> sp baking course in round 1, the other players sighed and I won by 20 pts.)

- Craft teacher
Getting mulitple occs out immediately and for free is both strong and game warping, since those two occs can radically shift the gamestate for others in an unpredictable way.

- Child ombudsman
Not enough of a cost for how easily it lets you grow.

[alexwjb]

I also support those wanting Tree Guard banned, my heart sinks when I see it. It is so game warping and not in a fun way.

[EconSean]

I just want to reiterate how much I think that tree guard should be banned. I can't believe that this card survived more than a season. I have 0 idea who enjoys playing against this card. In addition to it being strong, it's the least fun I've had playing against a card ever. I think I'd rather play against big country again in every single game than see a tree guard played against me one more time.

[hayduke]

Why isn't Job Contract banned?

[Acerbic]

I don't think anyone else has so much as mentioned Job Contract -- if you want it to be banned you should make a case for it

[siverure]

Making a new list. Same format as before - cards that definitely should be banned, cards that I think should be banned but think I could be convinced otherwise, cards I think could be banned but I don't have a strong preference either way, and cards I think have arguments to ban (i.e got mentioned in this thread) but personally feel definitely do not belong on the banlist. I have more explanations besides cards here.

Definite Bans: D092 Child Ombudsman (grows too easily. massive action advantage it can give means you win by 10+ points, not the 4-6 this card makes you pay for growth), A131 Craft Teacher, A097 Freshman, C028 Teachers Desk (these cards enable occs far too easily, freshman with combos, craft teacher by just growing first then building guilds, teachers desk by playing the other half of your hand or all the majors), D021 Recruitment (the latest update said the devs want to unban it with errata. Please don't. The growth is too simple even if it only happens in r5).

Prefer Banning: B015 Carpenters Bench (enabling alternative fencing actions is a strong minor. netting 3 wood for free is a strong minor. this is both), D019 Pulverizer Plow (easy plows, and can wreck the clay economy for other players), D074 Royal Wood (10+ wood on a 1f minor for playing the way you should with a lot of wood), A014 Carpenters hammer (decent alone, absurd combos), E022 Guest Room (looks like it might be better than lover), B162 Forest Clearer (giving extra wood on wood actions is decent. helping feeding with these better wood actions is very strong).

All of carpenters bench, forest clearer and pulverizer plow to me seem to incentivize pushing growth and then farming with late moves, which I feel removes one of the bigger tensions in the game (that having lots of actions to use does not mean you have lots of good actions to take).

Neutral: C023 Job Contract, E075 Stone Axe, E116 Fir Cutter, D014 Hammer Crusher, (strong cards that I don't think get into ban power) A093 Bed Maker, C092 Autumn Mother, B092 Little Stick Knitter (i believe alternative growth space enablers are fine when it's this awkward, but combos can make it not awkward), A074 Stable tree (very strong combos, mediocre alone),

Some older cards I don't feel strongly about: C102 Tree guard (attacks a very specific area of the game (stone) very strongly, while being weak on wood. On power I don't think it deserves a ban, but it does have a large warping effect on the game. The combos with strong wood don't especially scare me given that strong wood is probably game winning alone.). B117 Informant (Gives an absurd amount of wood, but I find the requirement to have stone and not have clay frequently makes things very awkward, especially given that many cards and strategies flat out do not work with informant).
C104 collector (I love collector, but it enables you to do basically anything which strong players will probably turn into a win somehow.)

Against banning: B032 Kettle, A010 Wooden shed, B076 Ceilings, E102 Acquirer,(strong cards that I am sure don't get into ban power) D030 Artisan District, (high variance, but difficult to pull off).

[alexwjb]

Hey Siv, love the detailed posts. My thoughts:

1) The banlist probably needs to be responsive to the Arena rules. Teacher's Desk is for sure banworthy in draft 10, but maybe not in draft 8? It would be a shame to get rid in draft 8 as then it is an interesting card that opens up unusual strats, without being busted.

2) Not sure I agree Forest Clearer is banworthy. It's good but is it that good? Looking forward to the next stats drop and being proven wrong.

3) Glad you are at least neutral on Tree Guard. I just now had another game which Tree Guard messed up. It takes two rounds of being forced to go fourth when a Tree Guard is in play, and your game gets wrecked. It's way too high variance for other players in a way they can't do anything about. I would buy an extra premium subscription just to ban it.

4) I agree with everything else you say.

[Atzedo]

Hi guys, here my thoughts:
(THX at siv for the cards)


Definite Bans:
D092 Child Ombudsman (see sivs arguments)
A131 Craft Teacher (simply ridiculous, wins always, combos are even more riduculous, before stage 3 you can play all your occs plus 3 majors)
D021 Recruitment (see sivs arguments).
D074 Royal Wood (1ridiculous ceiling , mostly 6-8+ wwood for a 1f minor... thats simply too much )


Prefer Banning:
B015 Carpenters Bench (see sivs arguments),
E022 Guest Room (see sivs arguments),
B162 Forest Clearer (super stupid card, always ).
Ash Trees (5 wood for a minor with super easy conditions)

Neutral:
E075 Stone Axe
E116 Fir Cutter (if we ban fir cutter we should also block informant)
C028 Teachers Desk (in draft 8 its ok in draft 9 and 10 => ban)

No Ban:
C023 Job Contract (will be weaker in lower drafts when there are no dl cards in game)

D019 Pulverizer Plow (killing the clay economy is no argument from my point of view. a sudden baseboard in the game can change the wood economy also completely , if other players know that the plvplow is in game, they have to note that the value of clay increases alot)

A014 Carpenters hammer (1 wood + a minor into 2 reed and /2wood/3 clay/4 stone is a good trade, but you always risk grow queue problems,
its not an always win card. some combos might be strong : with clay supports, House artist etc. but similar combos (clay supports + brick layer) were also super strong in the past and did not destroy the game completely)

A093 Bed Maker (Allows lots of strategies, in some games very strong, in some games weak, this variance is acceptable)
B092 Little Stick Knitter (easily blockable)
A074 Stable tree (very strong combos, but in some games almost completely useless, this variance is acceptable)

C102 Tree guard: Tree guard is mostly played by high elo players, low elo players dont play it. Tree guard does not always win and it does not destroy the game it just distorts it in a predictable way. you just have to adapt.

C104 collector (strong card but not banworthy in my opinion, if you fail to buy enough mayors, have no outs you might be limited by your ceiling at the end of the game)