Banlist Discussion!

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gric chick
Posts: 4
Joined: 13 August 2021, 23:01

Re: Banlist Discussion!

Post by gric chick »

I agree some new cards are obvious bans. Here are some examples of games with more than 65 points (without additional spaces):

73 Estate Master (28 points) https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=432624742

71 Craft Brewery (10 points) https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=432067986
68 Craft Brewery (12 points) (with Collector) https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=428718729
67 Craft Brewery (12 points) https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=428793788

67 Chapel (9 points)l https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=434963426
66 Chapel (12 points) and Craft Brewery (10 points) https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=422503010
66 Chapel (9 points) (with Collector) https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=433839467

66 Craft Teacher https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=422556385
66 Craft Teacher https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=423470804
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siverure
Posts: 22
Joined: 24 January 2021, 16:01

Re: Banlist Discussion!

Post by siverure »

So it's been a few months and i've played some amount with the new cards.

Here are my updated lists of unambiguous bans that are way over the line, definite bans that took me time to come to, watchlist cards that I might want to ban in the future, and non-banworthy cards that I feel were mentioned:

Unambiguous - just way way WAY too strong:
Estate master.
Weakling. I played against this today. It came down relatively early in stage 2. For almost the entire midgame the table policed it, and no big stacks were available for it to trigger. Then in round 11 there was 5 food on traveling players that wasn't taken and they got 4 vegetables in one round, and thus the floodgates opened and it gave like 10+ vegetables.
Craft brewery.

Definite:
Writing chamber: It's always 7 points and you don't have to work for them. At worst it fills your farm and compensates for goods you don't get. At best it's compensating for card negative points.
Chapel: The minigame of "who can take the chapel space the most for large amounts of bonus points" is already silly. The fact that for other players to compete in the chapel minigame they need to hand you like 4+ grain collectively is ridiculous.
Summer house: Gives way too much reward for just ignoring farming.
Craft teacher: I realized that with this card I was going out of my way to build bad guilds with no intention of ever having more of the guild resource just to play occupations more efficiently. This is just too good.
Walking boots. I've been trying to figure out ways to make this card good. Unfortunately all the ways I can think of to make this card good break the flow of the game in very annoying ways. We banned carriage trip and this is more offensive.

Watchlist:
Pulverizer plow: I haven't actually played enough games to see this get played. It's also more incremental an effect than most of the definite ban candidates.
Hayloft barn: This seems like a really really good deal. It's still too early for me to be sure it's banworthy good.
Nightworker: Breaks the flow of the game. Not sure it does so enough, and in a sufficiently surprising way, to be banned (although I would like to see clarification on taking multiple actions starting with the nightworker action).
Artisan's district: I have yet to see someone really go off with this yet. The potential is scary though.

Collector tier:
Collector: This should be on the watchlist if I was honest but I don't want to ban collector because I like playing with it too much.

Not banworthy:
Most growth addition cards - autumn mother/bed maker etc. They don't seem to be that strong on average.
Forest clearer: It still seems very strong, but there are way more egregious things than this.
Acquirer: In the hands of some expert players this seems very good, but I'm not sure I want to be banning cards only experts can use and it doesn't seem that egregious to me. Unlike collector this also doesn't really work if you spend time growing, so it's fairly committal to small house strategies (or absurd food engines, but everything works with those).
Lazybones: As far as I can tell it's pretty good if you play it, but people don't want to play it.

A note on big country unban wishes: One of my big issues with big country is that on average it makes the game more, not less, about building lots of rooms and pushing growth.
The main way you counter a hard-line 2 room player will be to have tons and tons of actions to out compete on the full board the 2 room player leaves behind. If you don't fight hard for grow vs a hard-line 2 room player you're going to be in an awful squeeze between the 2 room player and the probably 5 room player and likely struggling for third. So while big country isn't building rooms the other 3 players have to fight for grow to beat it. This is not to mention that there are significantly more ways for a hard-line 2 room player to sneak extra actions in than when it got banned (at which point there were none).

A lot of the above notes on big country also apply to little peasant.

Edit: I just played another game and an opponent had the minor "Recruitment" (D021) and while I think most growth enabling occupations aren't that strong it's ludicrous to have a minor that can do it as easily with no condition. This one should probably be banned - would put it in the unambiguous pile.
Last edited by siverure on 06 November 2023, 15:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Grumbleguts
Posts: 7
Joined: 22 November 2021, 11:07

Re: Banlist Discussion!

Post by Grumbleguts »

Pulverizer Plow definitely sounds worthy of more discussion to me.

Forest Plow is similar but leaving 2w on a wood action space is usually beneficial or neutral to opponents tactically speaking. Leaving 1c on a clay action space is whatever at best and obnoxious at worst from your opponents perspective. You could effectively warp the entire clay economy and deny opponents easy access to what is usually a less contested resource, or just delay plows until the ultra late game and still get 5-6 plows with ease.

With Tiller/Field Watchman (very strong cards) at least you can only use them once per round, and there are occasionally other people contesting you on those action spaces. Taking 2 or 3 clay is a pretty poor prospect for opponents to police.

Finally, we don't want to encourage anyone who enjoys playing Shovel Bearer and give them any more reasons to do so. ;)
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ekiM
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Joined: 22 October 2012, 18:58

Re: Banlist Discussion!

Post by ekiM »

Sheep Agent (hold 1 sheep per occupation) is strictly worse than Pet Broker (Gain 1 sheep + hold 1 sheep per occupation).

I'm not clear on the community consensus on cards that are strictly worse than others, but I find them uninteresting and annoying. They take a slot in the draft that could have gone to another more viable or interesting card.
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davicivad
Posts: 1
Joined: 18 January 2015, 21:33

Re: Banlist Discussion!

Post by davicivad »

Yo ya no se que hacer para ganar a este juego...por lo que me pongo un enlace a mi web de Reparar Ordenadores.
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torvaldur_makan
Posts: 46
Joined: 19 January 2021, 21:34

Re: Banlist Discussion!

Post by torvaldur_makan »

ekiM wrote: 07 November 2023, 18:08 Sheep Agent (hold 1 sheep per occupation) is strictly worse than Pet Broker (Gain 1 sheep + hold 1 sheep per occupation).

I'm not clear on the community consensus on cards that are strictly worse than others, but I find them uninteresting and annoying. They take a slot in the draft that could have gone to another more viable or interesting card.
I agree with you. Another such example is Plow Hero and Plow Maker. It is simply bad game design.

But from what I understand, the purpose of this thread is to remove problematic cards from a competitive perspective and not to fix the game design.
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siverure
Posts: 22
Joined: 24 January 2021, 16:01

Re: Banlist Discussion!

Post by siverure »

Banning uninteresting and annoying cards that take a space in the draft is not a very good way to go about things. There are dozens such cards in the current set. If you want to have drafts that don't get stuck taking bad cards, then deal a higher amount of cards initially (I'd suggest 7 from 9 cards).

I also don't think sheep agent is uninteresting and annoying compared to stuff like loudmouth or catcher or even stuff like material deliveryman:)

As to additional banlist thoughts since last week:

I have been informed nightwatcher does work with multiple action cards, and these actions are unrestricted. Thus it's a definite ban. It's one thing stealing certain resource stacks at the start of rounds, it's quite another stealing growth or cultivation or fences.

Child ombudsman deserves a watchlist spot. I tend to judge growth enablers not by how quickly they get you to 3 people, but how well they get you to 4-5 people, and this one does so incredibly easily if you have room. Possibly the point penalty is too strenuous, but I doubt it, and even if it is it will probably make for miserable games to play with high action disparity.

Stone axe is worthy of consideration, but personally is in my "possibly too strong, but isn't breaking the game" don't ban yet list. A lot of other cards are very game breaking at the moment.
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siverure
Posts: 22
Joined: 24 January 2021, 16:01

Re: Banlist Discussion!

Post by siverure »

Okay due to the arena season rollover happening in a week, and the possibility that the developers and gurus might rush out the new set into arena I would like to formally put all the cards I want banned into a single post. There are a lot of them. I will not be including any cards that were not added in the latest set of cards to make things simpler for me, as I do not want to ban any of them before the 11 cards I definitely want banned in the new set and the six more I am very wary of.
I have four categories:
Cards I want banned. I am likely to abstain from the newest set for the absence of a single one of these from the banlist.
Cards I think are banworthy, but that I personally am willing to play with more. (neutral).
Cards I believe are powerful or disruptive enough, either individually or as part of combinations, to be in the conversation about banning, but that I believe are less worthy of being banned than already existing unbanned cards from other sets.
Cards I think are not worthy of being in the discussion. I will not be listing all of these, as this includes the vast majority of the cards.

Ban all of these: B022 Hayloft Barn, B023 Walking Boots, C031 Writing Chamber, C063 Craft brewery, D033 Summer House, C099 Garden Designer, B132 Estate Master, A048 Shaving Horse, A039 Chapel, C125 Nightworker.

Neutral: B032 Kettle, D019 Pulverizer Plow, D074 Royal Wood, E022 Guest Room, A131 Craft Teacher, D092 Child Ombudsman.

Against banning: A010 Wooden shed, A014 Carpenters hammer, A074 Stable tree, B076 Ceilings, C023 Job Contract, D014 Hammer Crusher, D030 Artisan District, E075 Stone Axe, A093 Bed Maker, C092 Autumn Mother, E102 Acquirer, E116 Fir Cutter, B162 Forest Clearer.

Edit: Somehow when going through the list of cards I missed weakling. Ban that too.
NgVV
Posts: 1
Joined: 05 January 2024, 04:45

Re: Banlist Discussion!

Post by NgVV »

release BC please.
Tywin Lanister
Posts: 1
Joined: 30 September 2021, 05:31

Re: Banlist Discussion!

Post by Tywin Lanister »

提议禁止卡牌:
刨工台(Shaving Horse):强度高+干扰其他玩家
干草棚:强度高+干扰其他玩家
讲桌Teacher's Desk :强度高
线人Informant :强度高,条件简单
精酿啤酒厂:过于太强大,一张卡相当于面包师傅+砖造烤炉+啤酒桌的强度

提议解除禁止:
Big Country
Little Peasant
------------------The following text is sourced from Baidu Translate-----------------
Suggest banning cards:
Shaving Horse: High intensity+interference with other players
Hayshed: High intensity+interference with other players
Teacher's Desk: High strength
Informant: High intensity and simple conditions
Craft Brewery: Too powerful, one card is equivalent to the strength of a baker, brick oven, and beer table

Proposal to lift ban:
Big Country
Little Peasant
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