Possible Variant to change Tile Number 6 in the new version back to the old version?

Forum rules
Please DO NOT POST BUGS on this forum. Please report (and vote) bugs on : https://boardgamearena.com/bugs
User avatar
leafsnack
Posts: 5
Joined: 04 October 2020, 04:33

Re: Possible Variant to change Tile Number 6 in the new version back to the old version?

Post by leafsnack »

They implemented 'changes' in the form of arena, which is completely inactive save for elite players beating up on low ranks.

I've been staying in the simple game. This tile isn't an issue, at any level, any more than other tiles like +-1 to die on main, removal of beige tile restrictions, 2 silver per sale.

And everyone has the same chance of getting these. Statistically, it balances out.

So, no idea who started this fantasy, but in my experience, it's all in people's imagination.
pretty sure this is a troll. But this comment misses the reason why tile #6 is a problem:

- You have a a #3 die.
- You can spend any # die to gain 2 workers.
- You can use those 2 workers to buy a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6. Or just take from the bank.
- Repeat every turn.

When you have tile #6, each turn you get to change one of your die (of any #) to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6.
A yellow tile that lets you change the number by +/-1 is nowhere near this good, in any situation.
- You have a #3 die.
- You can spend that die to play a 2, 3, or 4, but ONLY when placing green/blue tiles.
Not only do those yellow tiles only apply to 33% of the spaces on your board, but they can only use 3 of the 6 numbers on the die.
With tile #6, it applies to 100% of the spaces on your board. And you can use 6 of the 6 numbers.

33% x 1/2 = 1/6
100% x 6/6 = 1

Using dumdum math, tile #6 is strictly better than all +/-1 tiles, because it applies in 6 times* the amount of situations. [for Tile#8, 2x]
There's only one situation where it's even possible for Tile#6 to be worse: playing two tiles of the specific color it reduces in a single turn, plus buying a tile from the central bank.
It's unlikely that a +/-1 yellow tile will be used twice in the same turn, period. Even if you do, it would only be better for that one turn, assuming you had two tiles ready to play of the same type, assuming you were going to buy a tile that turn, assuming the tile you wanted is in the bank and not a numbered depot, assuming you had 2 coins already, assuming you rolled the die numbers you wanted. (lol)

The only downside is that you can only buy one tile per turn, and that applies to silver too. This almost never matters for 2 reasons:
- In any normal game, you are using your "buying slot" (the once/turn restriction for buying) on less than half of your turns.
- This is assuming you choose to change the number on your die every single turn. Quite frequently, if you get two numbers you like, you don't have to spend any workers at all to change numbers. You just take your ideal turn as though you didn't have tile#6, spending 2 die and 2 coins to move 3 tiles. You can stockpile workers -so easily- and with such frequency that everything written above this barely makes a difference, because all those numbers were assuming the worst-possible-case for tile#6, and the best-possible-case for everything else. We never mentioned Boarding Houses or any of the other ways to get workers. We never mentioned how this buy action is completely unbounded and can buy from any of the 16 tiles on the board, and without it you can only buy tiles out of the 4 bank slots.


Everyone is in agreement, though.
User avatar
Pascalbro
Posts: 18
Joined: 09 January 2021, 09:47

Re: Possible Variant to change Tile Number 6 in the new version back to the old version?

Post by Pascalbro »

leafsnack wrote: 11 February 2022, 23:52
pretty sure this is a troll. But this comment misses the reason why tile #6 is a problem:

- You have a a #3 die.
- You can spend any # die to gain 2 workers.
- You can use those 2 workers to buy a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6. Or just take from the bank.
- Repeat every turn.
It's not a troll. It's basic maths and statistics.

It only eliminates restrictions on 1 dice, when it comes to the main board. You still have to place the tile afterwards and can hold a maximum of 3. You need workers both to place and to get tiles so, you're not always going to be grabbing materials off the board, using this tile. And, as the game progresses, the worse it gets because your opponent will have more options available to them. Sometimes, it doesn't even come out at all.

I'm well aware of how it works, but statistically, you have just as much chance to get it as your opponent, it won't always come out when it's strong and it's not the oppressive engine you make it out to be.
When you have tile #6, each turn you get to change one of your die (of any #) to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6.
A yellow tile that lets you change the number by +/-1 is nowhere near this good, in any situation.
I love playing people who think so.
- You have a #3 die.
- You can spend that die to play a 2, 3, or 4, but ONLY when placing green/blue tiles.
Not only do those yellow tiles only apply to 33% of the spaces on your board, but they can only use 3 of the 6 numbers on the die.
With tile #6, it applies to 100% of the spaces on your board. And you can use 6 of the 6 numbers.

33% x 1/2 = 1/6
100% x 6/6 = 1
That's not how math works.

The bonus from the +1-1 tile applies to 2 dice, not one...

It's a 1/3 chance you'll hit what you want on pickup and, you get 2 chances. Moreover, you're not tapping into workers, which can be used for other things. You're trolling yourself dude.
Using dumdum math, tile #6 is strictly better than all +/-1 tiles, because it applies in 6 times* the amount of situations. [for Tile#8, 2x]
There's only one situation where it's even possible for Tile#6 to be worse: playing two tiles of the specific color it reduces in a single turn, plus buying a tile from the central bank.
It's unlikely that a +/-1 yellow tile will be used twice in the same turn, period. Even if you do, it would only be better for that one turn, assuming you had two tiles ready to play of the same type, assuming you were going to buy a tile that turn, assuming the tile you wanted is in the bank and not a numbered depot, assuming you had 2 coins already, assuming you rolled the die numbers you wanted. (lol)
Again, it helps if your dumdum math takes into account 2 dice, instead of 1, as well as what's saved in worker costs. You got doubles, you feel a lot better if the slot's empty and you can pick up things on the side.

Have you guys actually played 2019 or like, ran it once and then decided you'd rather be beating up on low ranks in arena after waiting 10-20 minutes for a game?
The only downside is that you can only buy one tile per turn, and that applies to silver too. This almost never matters for 2 reasons:
- In any normal game, you are using your "buying slot" (the once/turn restriction for buying) on less than half of your turns.
- This is assuming you choose to change the number on your die every single turn. Quite frequently, if you get two numbers you like, you don't have to spend any workers at all to change numbers. You just take your ideal turn as though you didn't have tile#6, spending 2 die and 2 coins to move 3 tiles. You can stockpile workers -so easily- and with such frequency that everything written above this barely makes a difference, because all those numbers were assuming the worst-possible-case for tile#6, and the best-possible-case for everything else. We never mentioned Boarding Houses or any of the other ways to get workers. We never mentioned how this buy action is completely unbounded and can buy from any of the 16 tiles on the board, and without it you can only buy tiles out of the 4 bank slots.


Everyone is in agreement, though.
Well no, the downside is that lategame, the tile is pretty much useless as opponents can just pivot to other things, you still need to focus on your own strategy, you need to have command of naval and be first to maximize its potential - the list goes on. It's not the win button you're all making it out to be.

Like, there's far more variables that you're ignoring.

Personally, I like to play against good players who are able to, first, get their maths right and second, have a basic command of statistics.

Lets say this game had a 'place this and win' tile in it. The chance of winning would still balance out, over time.

But it's not the win button you make it out to be and I've played enough 2019 to be confident of that and the developer's ability to balance their game.
User avatar
Qualitaetsgarant
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 June 2018, 22:51

Re: Possible Variant to change Tile Number 6 in the new version back to the old version?

Post by Qualitaetsgarant »

Still a troll, ---------------------.

Moderation edit: considering someone a troll is one thing, but the rest was pretty superfluous. Please stay civil.
User avatar
Pistol Star
Posts: 99
Joined: 11 October 2016, 02:41

Re: Possible Variant to change Tile Number 6 in the new version back to the old version?

Post by Pistol Star »

Qualitaetsgarant wrote: 12 February 2022, 03:17 Still a troll, ---------------------.
Precisely!
PappyGarcia
Posts: 55
Joined: 09 July 2021, 06:27

Re: Possible Variant to change Tile Number 6 in the new version back to the old version?

Post by PappyGarcia »

2019 version is garbage. Won't play it. Identical random board, First edition for the win.
cowboy_dan
Posts: 63
Joined: 10 May 2015, 22:56

Re: Possible Variant to change Tile Number 6 in the new version back to the old version?

Post by cowboy_dan »

Is there any way to get the data? Board 8 turned out to win 70+% of the time in 2p, right, so there’s an option to exclude it. Agricola has a banlist. There are comments above about official variants only, but if the data show one tile has a huge impact on the outcome, that should be reason enough to make its exclusion an option in game set up. If we could analyze games where yellow #6 is played in round 1, that would at least end the argument about it being overpowered.
User avatar
Pistol Star
Posts: 99
Joined: 11 October 2016, 02:41

Re: Possible Variant to change Tile Number 6 in the new version back to the old version?

Post by Pistol Star »

cowboy_dan wrote: 06 April 2022, 03:47 Is there any way to get the data? Board 8 turned out to win 70+% of the time in 2p, right, so there’s an option to exclude it. Agricola has a banlist. There are comments above about official variants only, but if the data show one tile has a huge impact on the outcome, that should be reason enough to make its exclusion an option in game set up. If we could analyze games where yellow #6 is played in round 1, that would at least end the argument about it being overpowered.
Board 8 isn't an issue if you play identical boards but it is correct that it must be excluded when you play different boards against each other.
All other boards however are also mismatched against each other just to a lesser degree.

It's true that it would be awesome to see actual data regarding tile 6 but I highly doubt that BGA would share any data.

I would however bet my house, my car, my board game collection and everything I own that any true and correct data analysis would get to the conclusion that this tile is utterly broken :)
The better the player the more abused the tile will be.
Only let's say experts+ vs experts+ games should be analyzed when this tile was in play to get a more accurate result, but then sample size might become an issue.
User avatar
aaronkw
Posts: 14
Joined: 20 July 2022, 19:52

Re: Possible Variant to change Tile Number 6 in the new version back to the old version?

Post by aaronkw »

I don't disagree, but I just wanted to offer a bit of perspective. I do think yellow 6 is far and away the most powerful, but I wouldn't classify it as a guaranteed loss. I do feel you can win against yellow 6 but it requires a ton of focus on playing perfect defensively. The key takeaways for me to have moderate success against it is to pivot to a ship strategy and hoard boarding houses (and sometimes banks). Obviously this is contextual but cramping their income makes it difficult for them to squeeze yellow 6 for all it's worth. If they have trouble getting extra money or workers, at best they can take a tile of their choosing, but you minimize their 3-turn plays. This can sometimes be enough to win. Is it enough to win if they get it in the first round? Probably not. If they get yellow 14 to kill a dice for 4 workers than it's definitely over for you. However, this defensive strategy when/if they pick up yellow 6 on rounds 2 or 3, combined with a little board help can help mitigate the tile more often than never. There are a decent number of top ELO ranked players that play 2019 edition so not all hope is lost in my opinion.
Post Reply

Return to “The Castles of Burgundy”