Arena Settings

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Pascalbro
Posts: 18
Joined: 09 January 2021, 09:47

Re: Arena Settings

Post by Pascalbro »

Here's a recent experience.

Queue up - wait 15+ minutes.

Get matched with an elite player, as bronze...

Please, for the love of god, put it back to what the designer intended.

There is no reason that a game this popular's arena is this void of life.
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techiesgoboom
Posts: 7
Joined: 22 June 2020, 03:15

Re: Arena Settings

Post by techiesgoboom »

Pascalbro wrote: 19 January 2022, 05:30 Why is Arena set to the first edition?
Because knowledge tile 6 in the updated edition fundamentally breaks the game. [Here is a previous post discussing the issues with it](https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewto ... 45&t=21940) and there are others on BGG. The benefit you get from that tile is on par with board 8.
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Pascalbro
Posts: 18
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Re: Arena Settings

Post by Pascalbro »

techiesgoboom wrote: 22 January 2022, 00:22
Pascalbro wrote: 19 January 2022, 05:30 Why is Arena set to the first edition?
Because knowledge tile 6 in the updated edition fundamentally breaks the game. [Here is a previous post discussing the issues with it](https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewto ... 45&t=21940) and there are others on BGG. The benefit you get from that tile is on par with board 8.
All I see from this 'discussion' are people making the same statement without any evidence to support these claims. Is it a strong effect? Sure. So is being the starting player and getting access to a resource, like silver, ahead of everyone. Or getting 4 workers for placing a building, or 2 silver, or a free action...

I don't want to learn and get better, at a competitive level, on a game that is no longer in print. This is a colossal waste of time.

Give me the standard edition AND board 8 please. Right now there are 2800 people playing and only about 1K in ranked with ridiculous wait times that's matching bronze with elites.

Edit: I just spent 20+ minutes waiting for a game, on a Friday. This is after waiting 15 to get matched, once again, with an elite.

The game takes long enough to play. This is ridiculous.
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Pistol Star
Posts: 99
Joined: 11 October 2016, 02:41

Re: Arena Settings

Post by Pistol Star »

Trust me when I tell you the new tile 6 is so overpowered it's just insane. I have never seen anything similar like it in any other game in my life and I have played many hundreds different board games in my life.

I am ranked 1 in Castles of Burgundy All Times List and I am the current Arena Champion. Just simply trust the top players when they say a tile is so incredibly overpowered.

If you would play a player similar to your own skills and this tile would show up I guess the person who would get it would 95%+ of the times become the winner of the game if it would be taken in the first 2 Phases of the game.

On top level the winner would be 99.9% of the times the player who would get it.
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Niall
Posts: 37
Joined: 06 August 2011, 22:03

Re: Arena Settings

Post by Niall »

Hi Pascal,

Agree with you that the new version generally looks brighter, and the artwork pops much better. That said I do find the old style less garish, and the iconography for yellow tiles is more intuitive in the original edition. Either way, there is an option to use the artwork of the version you want to see, regardless of the version you are playing.

In terms of gameplay, as far as I can recall, there are just three gameplay changes in the 2019 edition:
1. - Knowledge tile 6 is superpowered, letting you pick up any tile as a free action with two workers or two coins.
2. - Knowledge tile ?15 (3VP per good type sold) is now 2VP
3. - Knowledge tile for 2VP per bonus tile is now 3VP

As a competitive player myself (top 20 on here and #1 on the Digidiced app), I can assure you that for the many reasons outlined in this forum and in those on BGG forums, the new bonus tile number 6 really is so completely overpowered that it dominates the game in the 2019 edition. It means any die can be used for a wild pickup anywhere on the board, for no net loss of workers. With it, you can be more efficient getting what you want, as well as deny your opponent what they want more effectively, every single round. With other yellow tile combos boosting workers/coins received, it becomes even more powerful. The other balance fixes 2 and 3 above are fine. To be honest for me they swing too far the other way, and should have swapped the nerfed tile into the regular stack and put the 3VP/bonus tile into the black market stack, reflecting the fact the animals and other yellows in the black market stack are on average a bit stronger than the regular pile.

I could be mistaken, but I believe Arena is supposed to be a forum for players to play the most competitive version of the game. Knowledge tile 6 skews the 2019 edition and makes it more prone to luck. It makes going first even more powerful. It forces you to try to get ships before your opponent at all costs, cutting down the strategic space to fewer potential winning options. And if you happen to be first player and get bonus tile 6 in phase A, your opponent has no chance at all, providing you are halfway competent. It is so powerful that using it, an average player stands a decent chance against a master, as testified by Pistol Star on here. If you don’t believe the many experienced players telling you so, play enough games of the 2019 edition for yourself, and as a smart and competitive person, you will realise this.

Besides the notorious 6 tile, the only significant difference really is cosmetic. Getting good at either version will make you better at the other. And as I said there is a setting to use the new art in original edition games, if you prefer. I suggest trying that. And if you are determined to throw yourself at the more luck-based 2019 edition, there are many tournaments using it on here that you can try.

I can understand lack of players would be a frustrating issue though. Perhaps this is about turn-based vs real-time? I tend to play turn-based and have no issue finding opponents in arena. Maybe it is something the site admins could look at to see what proportion of games are played in arena/simple, live/turn-based, and across the range of player counts. Then compare to other games and see which arena modes are popular and which aren’t. I’m not sure exactly what you’d do with that data, as some games lend themselves more or less to arena mode, but it could help to inform decisions on arena settings perhaps.
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Silene
Posts: 788
Joined: 23 October 2013, 17:50

Re: Arena Settings

Post by Silene »

I can imagine that such a waiting time is annoying. But why do you think it would be better if 2019-edition was played? I consider myself a competitive player but I don't play arena now and I wouldn't play arena then. Because - I don't like arena. That's it.

Simple game is also "ranked" btw and has ELO involved. It's not like all competitive play happens in arena only.
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Qualitaetsgarant
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 June 2018, 22:51

Re: Arena Settings

Post by Qualitaetsgarant »

Pascalbro wrote: 22 January 2022, 04:15
techiesgoboom wrote: 22 January 2022, 00:22
Pascalbro wrote: 19 January 2022, 05:30 Why is Arena set to the first edition?
Because knowledge tile 6 in the updated edition fundamentally breaks the game. [Here is a previous post discussing the issues with it](https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewto ... 45&t=21940) and there are others on BGG. The benefit you get from that tile is on par with board 8.
All I see from this 'discussion' are people making the same statement without any evidence to support these claims. Is it a strong effect? Sure. So is being the starting player and getting access to a resource, like silver, ahead of everyone. Or getting 4 workers for placing a building, or 2 silver, or a free action...

I don't want to learn and get better, at a competitive level, on a game that is no longer in print. This is a colossal waste of time.

Give me the standard edition AND board 8 please. Right now there are 2800 people playing and only about 1K in ranked with ridiculous wait times that's matching bronze with elites.

Edit: I just spent 20+ minutes waiting for a game, on a Friday. This is after waiting 15 to get matched, once again, with an elite.

The game takes long enough to play. This is ridiculous.
Winrate 37% explaining the game. Thanks for your advice, i will keep them in mind.
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Pascalbro
Posts: 18
Joined: 09 January 2021, 09:47

Re: Arena Settings

Post by Pascalbro »

Pistol Star wrote: 22 January 2022, 09:28 Trust me when I tell you the new tile 6 is so overpowered it's just insane. I have never seen anything similar like it in any other game in my life and I have played many hundreds different board games in my life.

I am ranked 1 in Castles of Burgundy All Times List and I am the current Arena Champion. Just simply trust the top players when they say a tile is so incredibly overpowered.

If you would play a player similar to your own skills and this tile would show up I guess the person who would get it would 95%+ of the times become the winner of the game if it would be taken in the first 2 Phases of the game.

On top level the winner would be 99.9% of the times the player who would get it.
I'm sorry but I fail to see the logic in trusting someone whose advice they're selling as expert opinion, has led to this stagnant deserted landscape we have before us.

It's great when you can set up your own rules to be number one of a format the majority of people engaging with this content is avoiding.

Congratulations on having such a prominent trophy on your mantle...

I'll just play the simple game, with all the content going forward and avoid you lot.

Also, I'd like to have this matter escalated to the site admins. This is ridiculous.
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Pistol Star
Posts: 99
Joined: 11 October 2016, 02:41

Re: Arena Settings

Post by Pistol Star »

Niall wrote: 22 January 2022, 09:46 Hi Pascal,

Agree with you that the new version generally looks brighter, and the artwork pops much better. That said I do find the old style less garish, and the iconography for yellow tiles is more intuitive in the original edition. Either way, there is an option to use the artwork of the version you want to see, regardless of the version you are playing.

In terms of gameplay, as far as I can recall, there are just three gameplay changes in the 2019 edition:
1. - Knowledge tile 6 is superpowered, letting you pick up any tile as a free action with two workers or two coins.
2. - Knowledge tile ?15 (3VP per good type sold) is now 2VP
3. - Knowledge tile for 2VP per bonus tile is now 3VP

As a competitive player myself (top 20 on here and #1 on the Digidiced app), I can assure you that for the many reasons outlined in this forum and in those on BGG forums, the new bonus tile number 6 really is so completely overpowered that it dominates the game in the 2019 edition. It means any die can be used for a wild pickup anywhere on the board, for no net loss of workers. With it, you can be more efficient getting what you want, as well as deny your opponent what they want more effectively, every single round. With other yellow tile combos boosting workers/coins received, it becomes even more powerful. The other balance fixes 2 and 3 above are fine. To be honest for me they swing too far the other way, and should have swapped the nerfed tile into the regular stack and put the 3VP/bonus tile into the black market stack, reflecting the fact the animals and other yellows in the black market stack are on average a bit stronger than the regular pile.

I could be mistaken, but I believe Arena is supposed to be a forum for players to play the most competitive version of the game. Knowledge tile 6 skews the 2019 edition and makes it more prone to luck. It makes going first even more powerful. It forces you to try to get ships before your opponent at all costs, cutting down the strategic space to fewer potential winning options. And if you happen to be first player and get bonus tile 6 in phase A, your opponent has no chance at all, providing you are halfway competent. It is so powerful that using it, an average player stands a decent chance against a master, as testified by Pistol Star on here. If you don’t believe the many experienced players telling you so, play enough games of the 2019 edition for yourself, and as a smart and competitive person, you will realise this.

Besides the notorious 6 tile, the only significant difference really is cosmetic. Getting good at either version will make you better at the other. And as I said there is a setting to use the new art in original edition games, if you prefer. I suggest trying that. And if you are determined to throw yourself at the more luck-based 2019 edition, there are many tournaments using it on here that you can try.

I can understand lack of players would be a frustrating issue though. Perhaps this is about turn-based vs real-time? I tend to play turn-based and have no issue finding opponents in arena. Maybe it is something the site admins could look at to see what proportion of games are played in arena/simple, live/turn-based, and across the range of player counts. Then compare to other games and see which arena modes are popular and which aren’t. I’m not sure exactly what you’d do with that data, as some games lend themselves more or less to arena mode, but it could help to inform decisions on arena settings perhaps.
I very much like your post. It's well written and to the point.

There's just one thing I wanted to add.

There is one more difference in the 2 versions.

In the 2019 edition you are allowed to buy a tile in between an ongoing action which I think is an awesome improvement over the original edition.

For example your storage is full and you place a castle. Before resolving your castle action you can buy a tile. (e.g. a residential building) and then continue resolving your castle action. e.g. you could place your newly bought residential building with your castle action.
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Pistol Star
Posts: 99
Joined: 11 October 2016, 02:41

Re: Arena Settings

Post by Pistol Star »

Pascalbro wrote: 22 January 2022, 20:09
Pistol Star wrote: 22 January 2022, 09:28 Trust me when I tell you the new tile 6 is so overpowered it's just insane. I have never seen anything similar like it in any other game in my life and I have played many hundreds different board games in my life.

I am ranked 1 in Castles of Burgundy All Times List and I am the current Arena Champion. Just simply trust the top players when they say a tile is so incredibly overpowered.

If you would play a player similar to your own skills and this tile would show up I guess the person who would get it would 95%+ of the times become the winner of the game if it would be taken in the first 2 Phases of the game.

On top level the winner would be 99.9% of the times the player who would get it.
I'm sorry but I fail to see the logic in trusting someone whose advice they're selling as expert opinion, has led to this stagnant deserted landscape we have before us.

It's great when you can set up your own rules to be number one of a format the majority of people engaging with this content is avoiding.

Congratulations on having such a prominent trophy on your mantle...

I'll just play the simple game, with all the content going forward and avoid you lot.

Also, I'd like to have this matter escalated to the site admins. This is ridiculous.
Hi Pascal,

as a matter of fact you are the first person in this thread who disagrees with my personal opinion and this thread is already very old.
So where are all the people who disagree on this topic?
I didn't set up my own rules. I just wrote down my personal opinion and also the opinion of the vast majority of users on boardgamegeek and as you can see in this thread on boardgamearena as well.
I did this for the love of the game and for all the other users who agree with me on this topic. Tell me one good reason why we shouldn't play with the most competitive settings in the arena other than the reason that the original edition is out of print?

It's still nearly the same exact game just overall better designed leading to an overall more fulfilling game experience because the sheer luck factor of 1 tile deciding the whole outcome of the game pretty much regardless of what the players have done previously has been removed.
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