7WD Arena vanilla vs all expansions

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How should be the Arena be designed?

Only one Arena mode (vinalla,pantheon,agora,full) should be accessible (non alternating, not parallel) [pls argue below, why]
35
22%
Multiple versions of the game should be playable in Arena, but it should be alternating by season. [also argue why, please]
30
19%
Multiple versions of the game should be playable in Arena at the same time (but with devided Aerna scores)
86
54%
Multiple versions of the game should be playable in Arena at the same time (but with same Aerna scores)
8
5%
 
Total votes: 159

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frankenStain
Posts: 79
Joined: 02 December 2020, 01:18

Re: 7WD Arena vanilla vs all expansions

Post by frankenStain »

btw, just to state the poll differences - through the week there was only one vote for option 3 - and since last post (and thread getting active again) 2 more for option 3, and one more for option 1 (probably second legitimate[needs to be checked by mod i guess..] for option 1 )

edit: just for completion sake it was [12,4,11,1], 10 of the 12 at very least weird (prob. faked)
Last edited by frankenStain on 19 December 2021, 15:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Pistol Star
Posts: 99
Joined: 11 October 2016, 02:41

Re: 7WD Arena vanilla vs all expansions

Post by Pistol Star »

I agree that it would be the best solution to get 4 different versions of the game. Seperated in all time rankings and Arena ratings. But I highly doubt that will ever happen :(
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frankenStain
Posts: 79
Joined: 02 December 2020, 01:18

Re: 7WD Arena vanilla vs all expansions

Post by frankenStain »

Pistol Star wrote: 19 December 2021, 10:17 I agree that it would be the best solution to get 4 different versions of the game. Seperated in all time rankings and Arena ratings. But I highly doubt that will ever happen :(
not worried about fragmenting the playerbase ?
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Pistol Star
Posts: 99
Joined: 11 October 2016, 02:41

Re: 7WD Arena vanilla vs all expansions

Post by Pistol Star »

frankenStain wrote: 19 December 2021, 15:21
Pistol Star wrote: 19 December 2021, 10:17 I agree that it would be the best solution to get 4 different versions of the game. Seperated in all time rankings and Arena ratings. But I highly doubt that will ever happen :(
not worried about fragmenting the playerbase ?
That's a very good point! I think the base game has a huge player pool but I think the expansions would face a severe issue with a too small player pool when it comes to arena games. Waiting times would turn out to be astronomically long.

So I have to say best option imho would probably be to have alternating arena seasons.
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Le007n
Posts: 64
Joined: 30 March 2020, 22:47

Re: 7WD Arena vanilla vs all expansions

Post by Le007n »

Surely if the players pools would be too small for a stand alone variant then alternating the arena mode would alienate a large percentage of arena players for months at a time and have a similar issue?

As my previous thoughts, I think four variants would be too many but two stand alone games, regularly and agora, both with the option to include pantheon would be the sweet spot

The arena could then alternate between having pantheon or not for each game type. This would be a much smaller jump for other players who could explore the variants in the arena, allow segregated arena and ranking scores and maintain reasonable sized player bases
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Pistol Star
Posts: 99
Joined: 11 October 2016, 02:41

Re: 7WD Arena vanilla vs all expansions

Post by Pistol Star »

Le007n wrote: 21 December 2021, 20:11 Surely if the players pools would be too small for a stand alone variant then alternating the arena mode would alienate a large percentage of arena players for months at a time and have a similar issue?

As my previous thoughts, I think four variants would be too many but two stand alone games, regularly and agora, both with the option to include pantheon would be the sweet spot

The arena could then alternate between having pantheon or not for each game type. This would be a much smaller jump for other players who could explore the variants in the arena, allow segregated arena and ranking scores and maintain reasonable sized player bases
Agreed!
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frankenStain
Posts: 79
Joined: 02 December 2020, 01:18

Re: 7WD Arena vanilla vs all expansions

Post by frankenStain »

frankenStain wrote: 09 December 2021, 06:22 - actual winning statistics for winning would be around 30 diplomacy, 30 war, 25 points and 15 science -
not that its very important - but it bothered me back then, that it was said, that 7wd agora+pantheon is imbalanced.

this assumption (wining statistics) above isnt so far off, based on my wins so far (hope its representative, since im playing quite balanced, and mostly against very good players) :

32.86% diplomacy, 28.57% war, 23.00% points, 16.10% science wins (0.53% too many, because the precise win quota wasn't available; and well rounding ^^)


also, besides this statistic (indicating diplomacy isn't the "sledgehammer" assumed), the other arguments in the analysis are valid still...
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jrec15
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Joined: 17 February 2022, 20:57

Re: 7WD Arena vanilla vs all expansions

Post by jrec15 »

Personally, would love to see at least two ladders is all. So I agree with OP.

I don't really like 7WD Vanilla. I find it needs pantheon to be a proper competitive game, and just personally don't really want to climb the ladder on vanilla. A ton of people like Vanilla, I get it. So it needs to stay. Just not for me.

Breaking down the other options:
Base + Agora: I just don't think this really has a right to be its own ladder. I enjoy it, but I enjoy it way more with Panethon included, because base + Agora takes a swingy game and makes it swingier. It's fun, but not really competitive enough to justify an arena ladder.

Base + Pantheon: Probably the single best competitive mode. Adds so much with the reveal tokens and the option to play Gods instead of drawing, the great control you have over the Gods, etc. But there's some pros to adding Agora.

Base + Agora + Pantheon: Pantheon greatly helps tone down Agora's swinginess. Agora offers a significant/needed buff to blue card, slight buff to military, interesting meta game in senate control, and more routes to economy that challenge the value of early browns/greys. Sure it adds a wild factor with conspiracies but it's not enough to completely throw off the integrity of the game with Pantheon included.

So I'm good with either Base/Pantheon or Base/Pantheon/Agora. If there's room for 3 ladders, that's cool too, but I understand keeping it to 2 ladders has benefits. Of the two, I'd just vote to do Base/Pantheon/Agora. I think it makes the most sense to have a ladder for all expansions and a ladder for none. It's also my personal favorite way to play so perhaps I'm a bit biased.
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michaelHastriter
Posts: 83
Joined: 25 January 2016, 23:52

Re: 7WD Arena vanilla vs all expansions

Post by michaelHastriter »

Of the 4 options, I would agree with
"Multiple versions of the game should be playable in Arena, but it should be alternating by season."
the most, however I could see an argument for making all expansions the "ultimate champion" if there needs to be a #1. My theory is that the game is more strategic with more ways to mitigate bad setups when both expansions are present.

Please let me know if you disagree as I enjoy good argument. Example: I've heard Agora has an even heavier first player advantage that could counteract my theory.
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frankenStain
Posts: 79
Joined: 02 December 2020, 01:18

Re: 7WD Arena vanilla vs all expansions

Post by frankenStain »

michaelHastriter wrote: 24 February 2022, 02:06 My theory is that the game is more strategic with more ways to mitigate bad setups when both expansions are present.

Please let me know if you disagree as I enjoy good argument. Example: I've heard Agora has an even heavier first player advantage that could counteract my theory.
It is at the very least more tactical (by a lot) - not sure if you could say that 7wd Agora+Pantheon is more strategic in comparison to the 3 alternatives.

In most cases being first in Agora or (even more) in Agora+Pantheon is not a advantage (knossos/the right diplomat (without a counter) with some tokens (+2 to blue, Extra turn when buying black card, +2 when trashing card...) is the rare exception) - its often even better being second - so you can largely force the opponent to open cards (he gets to choose the gods and their position as a counter perk) and can start first in age 2 (which is HUGE) for the cost of an extra turn wonder.

... and since its the most probable (if even ..) we could get is "Multiple versions of the game should be playable in Arena, but it should be alternating by season.", I see no point in arguing what is better in theory (even if my opinion is by a slight margin 2 simultaneous arenas, with the reasoning in posts above).
the only thing I really oppose is there being only one vanilla arena, forever - which seems to be the most likely right now ... reasons being:
the guru system, which decides the next format, is highly flawed;
the Status quo bias seems very present here;
some people feeling so strongly playing only vanilla arena, that they've gone through the trouble to manipulate the poll ( how petty is that...);
and neither admins nor mods seem to care about this, even if it is one of the most played games on their platform
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