7WD Arena vanilla vs all expansions

[Le007n]

Agora and vanilla 7wd are two completely different games as mentioned and should never be alternated in arena

The only linking factor they have is pantheon which works ok with either version

Base 7wd has three balanced win conditions at around 25% science, 25% military, 50% civilian

Add in pantheon and sciences win rate increase but the extra elements are pretty understandable for players familiar with the game

Agora throws this out the window and is the race for politics and massively changes the focus of the game. You only have to look at drons stats to see the politics win rate goes through the roof. The fact you can win in age one clearly shows this unbalance.

For those familiar with agora this can be fought out on a more even playing field. Against unfamiliar players it's an easy victory so doesn't transition well

That being said, there is a smaller player base which enjoy this variant so there is an arguement that the standard game should be two versions with separate elo and it could then have its own arena. Both version could allow pantheon to be turned on but that's as far as they should even be combined

Alternating the seasons would likely alienate a lot of the regular players and only benefit the minority so a standalone version would be the only way I would suggest

[frankenStain]

[1.]
Base 7wd has three balanced win conditions at around 25% science, 25% military, 50% civilian

[2.]
Agora throws this out the window and is the race for politics and massively changes the focus of the game. You only have to look at drons stats to see the politics win rate goes through the roof. The fact you can win in age one clearly shows this unbalance.

[3.]
That being said, there is a smaller player base which enjoy this variant so there is an arguement that the standard game should be two versions with separate elo and it could then have its own arena. Both version could allow pantheon to be turned on but that's as far as they should even be combined

[4.]
Alternating the seasons would likely alienate a lot of the regular players and only benefit the minority so a standalone version would be the only way I would suggest

to1.
are there statistics for all players (not just for specific players) ? i would love such a tool - but i dont seem to find that

to2.
not a great example - you should compare win conditions between players who know what theyre doing^^ - dron is just destroying everyone that registers to turn-based tournaments; most of this guys are a bad benchmark for the balance of the game...

to3.
is it really a smaller player base ? O.o (is it by participants or by games played - can i see that somewhere? )
because under the top 20 players by elo (or from expert level up) are most non vanilla players... (dont have a great way to do that; i just opened every player profile and checked the last played 10 games..)

to4.
thats kind of my problem right now - the top of the top (by elo, if this an adequate measurement for it) seem to be Agora+Panteon players - with no competitive environment...

[Le007n]

1. Bga shows you stats for all games but this is heavily polluted by variant and player level. These numbers are based on my experience, analysing and talking with other top players and things I have read whilst learning the game. It seems pretty accurate for players of a good level

If only bga would give us these stats for many games...

2. I would argue that playing tournaments for variants is a better barometer. For most games, more competitive players head to arena or compete in tournaments. Players have made a conscious choice to play this mode, therefore you would expect them to have a better understanding. Those which join random games are possibly just looking for a game and do not know the variant at all and are proverbial lambs to the slaughter

Standard 7wd doesn't have a single sledgehammer way to win even if you played lower opponents whereas, agora clearly does. You can just rinse and repeat essentially the same method making it less balanced in my opinion. If you get two high rates players then can probably battle this out a little more evenly but the curve is steeper

3. The only real comparable indication are the tournaments. There are many more standard tournaments with high player counts (300-400+ for some). The variants do not have the same following in my experience

The best way you could guage this would be to look at the games in progress at a set point in time and see what people are playing. My guess would be 90% are standard

4. Agreed, there seems to be little competitive play for the variants.

The elo is higher due to this fact that the agora + pantheon player base is a lot weaker giving more players in the top 20. The top few trade the occasional elo or pray upon those who don't know the meta so this will just keep going up

When I was actively playing I reached just over 600 elo as rank one. 700 seemed a much further stretch at that time. I would attribute this to the high skill level of other players and the better balance in the game

Since there are multiple players over 700 elo who play the variants this definitely points to less competition

---

Take my thoughts for what they are worth. 7wd is still my favourite game so I like to read the forums but I don't enjoy playing it currently

The only way I could see you getting a competitive agora scene is if they split standard and agora into two games and pantheon was an option to turn on in both. They could then have seperate elo, arenas etc

This would benefit the standard game also by dividing the player bases as they are two very different games with pantheon as the intersect

Changes of this happening seems low but you never know!

[KongKing123]

Different versions playable during the same Arena Season is an obvious no-go as that makes the whole ladder meaningless.

Splitting the expansions off into their own ladders sounds nice in theory, but that currently requires creating separate games for each of them, which is not very user-friendly for casual play. So unless the site adds support for multiple ladders within the same base game, I don't consider it realistic.

That leaves only alternating Seasons or not. I would say no and just stick to the original.

The base game is quite balanced (apart from the Wonder draft and first turn advantage), Agora on the other hand is not. It has too many random elements and hidden "gotcha" cards that you can't prepare for. Good for casual games, but not suitable for a competitive mode.

Pantheon I wouldn't mind as much, but some Gods are obviously better than others and it still throws out certain conventions (and not always for the better).

[frankenStain]

just a note: lol who the f* manipulated the poll ??? O.o

(i check every couple hours - 8 hours before it had [0,4,7,1] votes with forum thread about 250-270 views (and 4 votes in suggestion) ... it was up for 4 days - now it has [11,4,8,1] with 291 views (and still 4 votes in suggestion) - wtf ?! )

[frankenStain]

first off thanks for you opinion leon!

3. The only real comparable indication are the tournaments. There are many more standard tournaments with high player counts (300-400+ for some). The variants do not have the same following in my experience

So, besides analyzing the top elo players (let's say top 20 or above 500 elo) [which is biased in your opinion], it boils down to, that we don't have actual tools to measure what version is played most, only opinions it seems (?)
Because saying tournaments are a benchmark for competitive players, based on assumptions what people are thinking, when they play tournaments, is also very faulty. (they are probably a bunch of people who would play casually and play tournaments and also a bunch of people that play arena competitively and don't play tournaments [#While watching Netflix championship])
I could give you my anecdotal evidence (which means it's no evidence): most people play full expansions or agora tournaments (in my experience) ... also they play turn-based - that is because my experience is biased by what dron played. Also, I tried to get together a creme de la creme tournament (by elo - so it was agora+pantheon) - most of the people I invited just didn't have time, even for a turn-based one, and they were all quite competitive...

(On the side note, I wouldn't make the argument that the version which is most played should be played in arena, if it comes to deciding on only one version. - which makes the discussion pointless, but I can give reasons why it is pointless as a deciding factor, and only makes sense as excluding factor, if somebody is interested)

.... Also I wanted to clear some misconceptions about 7wd agora+pantheon: there are no sledgehammer methods to win - it always is a balancing act between economy, war, science, diplomacy, potential and timing, which might boil down in the end into points - actual winning statistics for winning would be around 30 diplomacy, 30 war, 25 points and 15 science - things to add to that are, that war and diplomacy are a synergy in agora, you gotta activly do something against pressure from it.. and that the actual killer tactic in some games would be science btw, if the cards/tokens are right; you can decide, whether it is, even before taking the first card (the only way to kill that tactic in those games, is to destroy the opponent before age 3 - or just drain his wonders and recources , so you might survive a sudden death in age 3...) - the game is balanced because there is almost always a counter play, IF you know what youre doing (which almost none of people under 450 elo do) .... [and btw, playing vanilla feels like playing down an optimal obvious predetirmined path, at some point; it's boring, that's why I changed versions, and I assume thats why ginger and shibamizo did, both with over 2000 victories now {pity pistol star didnt switch --- but got inactive instead}]
coming to my next point, elo - the discrepancy is NOT because the people with high elo destroy noobs en masse (with a sledgehammer which is bs in itself), its because agora+pantheon despite being very balanced, is very skill-based (and yes with a steep learning curve if you want to compete in the top) - you are almost never done for sure, there is always some insane risky play you might try (just need to see it and maybe some luck from there on) - some people wining very often is not a sign of disbalance, its a sign that you are not done for just because of bad luck [in the beginning and in general] (like not being the starting player, and not getting the most extra turn wonders, in vanilla), but can fix it with creative or otherwise skilled play... the best way to get elo btw is playing against high elo opponents, and being just a little bit better and/or luckier (here luck comes really into play, because most players know what they are doing - also its luck overall in this case, the tables can turn in a lot of points)

and to clarify I don't find vanilla 7wd bad in itself, it just got boring for me personally (and at least I know what I'm talking about, I did get to 550 elo with vanilla back when agora wasn't an option) - that's why I suggested both arenas, be it parallel or alternating by seasons, and that's why I didn't expect this to get a discussion about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_quo_bias at any point here - kudos to you Romain, I guess... ( guess this goes less to leon but more to kongking and to whomever manipulated the poll today -.-)

PS: on a side note, there is someone exploiting noobs with 7WD agora+pantheon, but only one afaik: boogs_33 (making tables, kicking anyone above 200 elo, and redthumbing them so they don't join again - also red thumbing anyone who won against him - wining only because he knows the rules of both expansions, even if playing lousy himself) - someone should ban such preying on newcomers and red thumb misuse...

[Pistol Star]

I think this thread is really awesome and the poll is as well as long as the poll hasn't been manipulated. My guess is that someone messaged several other players who only play arena to vote for the first option in the hopes of that option being the one which keeps all things like they are.

I particularly found your last big post interesting, frankenstain.

When this analysis comes from somebody as extremely skilled as you I think we should all believe in what you say. If there is one expert in the world when it comes to all possible variants in 7 Wonders Duel then it is definitely frankenstain. No doubt about that. I saw how you have mainly played other top ranked players in agora+pantheon and for a very long period of time you won nearly every single of these games. This says enough about your skill level. And I also know and remember how you have performed in vanilla. That was also quite impressive.

I feel the same as you when it comes to vanilla. It's kind of boring and way too much boils down to variance in a single game against competent opponents. I feel like in vanilla arena the number 1 factor besides obvious skill determining the arena winner is playing A TON of games and waiting until you hit that god run of games (variance on your side) and then stop playing with your very high rating.

A strong player who wouldn't play extremely many games therefore has few chances of actually being able to have a realistic chance of winning it.

Because of this reason and the reasons frankenstain had pointed out I feel like there should be at least some rotation of variants between seasons.
I definitely think Agora+Pantheon should be one of the variants included besides Vanilla. The other ones I see more or less optional.
My personal favorite option would be option 3 but I do think this won't happen. I don't think this is being done in any other game and I think bga doesn't want that.

I think a good compromise would be to alternate between vanilla and Agora+Pantheon between Seasons. This way I think most groups will be satisfied enough. I also think a break after a 3 month long hard vanilla arena grind is good for everybody's mental and physical health

[Pechnik]

My opinion is that not only the Arena should be made separate for different versions of the game, but in general all these versions should be separated so that the rating standings in them would be different. The current rating system is not fair, since in vanilla 7wd you can lose to anyone and greatly drop your rating. Despite the fact that I do not really care about the rating, it is still a little sad. It seems that I am the only player from the top rankings who actively plays vanilla 7wd.

I see two options:

• (looks like the best solution from my point of view) make 4 separate games: vanilla, agora, pantheon, agora & pantheon,

• make two separate games: vanilla and agora, and in each make the opportunity to add the pantheon expansion.

Also, regardless of the decision on the separating of these versions, I consider it necessary to make matches in vanilla 7wd up to 3 wins (at least as a possible option; including in the arena) with alternating of the first move (and possibly with paired sets of starting wonders for the first 4 games).

[frankenStain]

It seems that I am the only player from the top rankings who actively plays vanilla 7wd.

dron seems to play vanilla; that's why he dropped to 550-650... (just btw)

[TacCOIG]

(looks like the best solution from my point of view) make 4 separate games: vanilla, agora, pantheon, agora & pantheon,

I would agree; The game is quite different for each different version (Particularly vanilla & others) and would be in favour of them being seperate games on BGA (therefore seperate ELO & Arena leagues/stats).