Rules for New Players

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SquashEngineer
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Joined: 05 October 2021, 02:18

Rules for New Players

Post by SquashEngineer »

As a new player to Santorini, I thought I had a pretty good idea generally how this abstract logic game worked going in.
Upon reading the Rules posted here on BGA, I can't imagine a more complicated and confusing way to describe how to play this game, than what is presented. Not only are there errors, they are not presented in a logical way to make sense to (I imagine) anyone.
I had to refer externally to a set of rules to verify the most basic game play mechanics, and the proper wording conventions.
This is a simplistic game and should not have been a difficult task. What happened?

There are a number of instances here on BGA, where game rules are re-written, and/or translated, for the purposes of BGA. Invariably they turn out misconstrued, incorrectly translated, and simply cause more confusion than they resolve.

Why is BGA re-writing rules in the first place? Just present the rules provided by the original publisher. Perhaps it MAY NOT be permissible to just present the original game rules from the publisher verbatim? But there has to be a better solution than having the level of poor results that have been provided here. How could they have been reviewed? How did the test newbie understand these rules? What is going on?
Ez0ah
Posts: 248
Joined: 21 April 2020, 17:13

Re: Rules for New Players

Post by Ez0ah »

As every rule set presented on BGA, it’s written by the community so you are absolutely free to go and edit them if you feel like they are poorly written.

That being said, I’m not sure what’s shocking you in these rules. I felt that they were clear enough. I asked a new player you had no prior knowledge of the game and they had no questions about the base mecanics, only with the powers or team play.

As for your point about original rules, these are posted in the file section. The BGA rules are edited because some of the actions are automated, and need less explanation.
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Tisaac
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Joined: 26 August 2014, 21:28

Re: Rules for New Players

Post by Tisaac »

SquashEngineer wrote: 15 December 2021, 16:19 As a new player to Santorini, I thought I had a pretty good idea generally how this abstract logic game worked going in.
Upon reading the Rules posted here on BGA, I can't imagine a more complicated and confusing way to describe how to play this game, than what is presented. Not only are there errors, they are not presented in a logical way to make sense to (I imagine) anyone.
I had to refer externally to a set of rules to verify the most basic game play mechanics, and the proper wording conventions.
This is a simplistic game and should not have been a difficult task. What happened?

There are a number of instances here on BGA, where game rules are re-written, and/or translated, for the purposes of BGA. Invariably they turn out misconstrued, incorrectly translated, and simply cause more confusion than they resolve.

Why is BGA re-writing rules in the first place? Just present the rules provided by the original publisher. Perhaps it MAY NOT be permissible to just present the original game rules from the publisher verbatim? But there has to be a better solution than having the level of poor results that have been provided here. How could they have been reviewed? How did the test newbie understand these rules? What is going on?
What are you talking about ???????
MoiMagnus
Posts: 356
Joined: 17 March 2020, 20:15

Re: Rules for New Players

Post by MoiMagnus »

SquashEngineer wrote: 15 December 2021, 16:19 As a new player to Santorini, I thought I had a pretty good idea generally how this abstract logic game worked going in.
Upon reading the Rules posted here on BGA, I can't imagine a more complicated and confusing way to describe how to play this game, than what is presented. Not only are there errors, they are not presented in a logical way to make sense to (I imagine) anyone.
I had to refer externally to a set of rules to verify the most basic game play mechanics, and the proper wording conventions.
This is a simplistic game and should not have been a difficult task. What happened?

There are a number of instances here on BGA, where game rules are re-written, and/or translated, for the purposes of BGA. Invariably they turn out misconstrued, incorrectly translated, and simply cause more confusion than they resolve.

Why is BGA re-writing rules in the first place? Just present the rules provided by the original publisher. Perhaps it MAY NOT be permissible to just present the original game rules from the publisher verbatim? But there has to be a better solution than having the level of poor results that have been provided here. How could they have been reviewed? How did the test newbie understand these rules? What is going on?
There is almost always, above the rules written by the community, a link to a pdf of the rules as provided by the original publisher. You're supposed to use this for reference, or help by suggesting to additional official sources if they are missing.

Additionally, for most well known games, the community have provided a sum-up of the rules in multiple languages. This sum-up can be edited through the wiki by anyone. It is supposed to be a quick reference, not a detailed rule, except for options and variants that are exclusive to BGA which should be detailed there.

BGA is not encouraging users to just copy/past paragraphs of the official rules and putting them here because it might cause copy-right issues in some corner cases (though not systematically), especially since BGA is located in France which has very strict rules about copy-right of translation (the translation's copy-right belongs to the translator for French law, not the original author).
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SquashEngineer
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Re: Rules for New Players

Post by SquashEngineer »

The below comments are not intended to be adversarial, but rather a reflection of my observations/suggestions made while learning to play Santorini, as a new player, for the first time on BGA. I had never played the board game previously. They could be used to improve the Rules page.

How to Play – The section of the wiki is called “How to Play”, not “quick reference if you already know the game”, or “condensed rules for BGA”, or “differences between the board game and BGA digital version.” It is the first reference that will be accessed by every reasonable new player, because it is more prominent and easier to get to than the original publisher rules provided by a link. That IS why the rules are provided on the BGA site – to make it easier.

Game OBJECTIVES – The Game OBJECTIVES are not even stated, and should have been the first and foremost, simplistic statement of the game rules – prior to introducing any of the obscure additional rules, and character powers. State the winning condition: “Be the first to move your worker to the top of a tower, before your opponent strategically blocks all your moves”

SETUP - The rules begin with the game SETUP. It jumps into describing selection of Power cards. This is before even knowing what POWER cards are, how selection might be influenced, and without even knowing the game objectives yet. As written, even after having played the game a few times, I do not fully understand this section, possibly due to translation/grammar.

ON YOUR TURN – It is not clearly stated how players turns are executed. It could have identified that players alternate taking their turns in two phases, consisting first of a MOVE phase, then immediately a BUILD phase. It should have clearly stated you can only move one level up – I’m still not clear whether you can ONLY move one level down or more at once?

BUILD – “Build a block (ground level, level 1, level 2) or dome (level 3).” This statement is confusing. Nothing occurs on ground level – it’s just empty. Building occurs on Level 1, 2, and 3. The dome is technically Level 4. The BLOCK pieces are even numbered in this manner. The glossary section has the same issue. (NOTE: If this is a difference in terminology between Europe and America – where ground level is considered the first floor or not – then there may be grounds for localization interpretation) However, the original publisher rules seem to describe it as Lvl 1,2,3 and dome.

Misleading Statement – “The heart of the game are the variable player powers” – I would argue the heart of the game is tactical and strategic blocking and attacking of your opponent to reach the top of a tower.

Terminology Consistency – “POWER CARDS” vs “GOD POWERS”
Ez0ah
Posts: 248
Joined: 21 April 2020, 17:13

Re: Rules for New Players

Post by Ez0ah »

As said before, if you think the How to Play section can be improved, please contribute and edit the page. It’s a community effort and the input of new players is always welcome.

The answers you got were adversarial because you criticized without giving specific examples. Thx for clarifying what you meant, but there is no one in charge of redacting the how to play section, especially since all languages are independent
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Tisaac
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Joined: 26 August 2014, 21:28

Re: Rules for New Players

Post by Tisaac »

SquashEngineer wrote: 22 December 2021, 18:53 It is the first reference that will be accessed by every reasonable new player, because it is more prominent and easier to get to than the original publisher rules provided by a link. That IS why the rules are provided on the BGA site – to make it easier.
And that's where you are quite wrong IMO. You are probably the first one I ever heard about that tried to learn a game by reading this page. I mean most of players here don't even know this page/section thing exists. You should go watch the tutorial if you really know nothing about the game you want to play. I think this section should be kept as concise as possible, to remind you the base flow/rules of the games during the play if you forget about them, nothing extra.
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Romain672
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Re: Rules for New Players

Post by Romain672 »

Tisaac wrote: 22 December 2021, 22:40And that's where you are quite wrong IMO. You are probably the first one I ever heard about that tried to learn a game by reading this page. I mean most of players here don't even know this page/section thing exists. You should go watch the tutorial if you really know nothing about the game you want to play. I think this section should be kept as concise as possible, to remind you the base flow/rules of the games during the play if you forget about them, nothing extra.
For games of complexity 1&2 I really think it's not rare to look at that: it's what I usually do. Santorini is 2/5.
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tkok
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Re: Rules for New Players

Post by tkok »

Firstly, I think your feeling is rightful, those rules could (not should) be better for a first timer. As many have pointed out already you can improve them as they are made by community and thus editable.

I think a player shouldn't encounter those rules before they are playing the game already, as those rules are inside the game. New players should first see the game page in BGA (https://boardgamearena.com/gamepanel?game=santorini). There are Tutorial, Video explanation and the official rule book. So the rules in game are meant for players already confident enough to start a game or in other words for the players who already know the rules.

In larger scope, I don't think BGA is focused for new players but more for the players that already have played their favorite game in real life and now want to play them digitally. That shows in many ways: for example rules explanation; how much games are guiding players; and that how games and their mechanics are displayed to players (many things could be more visible via animations and so on).
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SquashEngineer
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Joined: 05 October 2021, 02:18

Re: Rules for New Players

Post by SquashEngineer »

tkok wrote: 28 March 2022, 10:59 Firstly, I think your feeling is rightful, those rules could (not should) be better for a first timer. As many have pointed out already you can improve them as they are made by community and thus editable.

I think a player shouldn't encounter those rules before they are playing the game already, as those rules are inside the game. New players should first see the game page in BGA (https://boardgamearena.com/gamepanel?game=santorini). There are Tutorial, Video explanation and the official rule book. So the rules in game are meant for players already confident enough to start a game or in other words for the players who already know the rules.

In larger scope, I don't think BGA is focused for new players but more for the players that already have played their favorite game in real life and now want to play them digitally. That shows in many ways: for example rules explanation; how much games are guiding players; and that how games and their mechanics are displayed to players (many things could be more visible via animations and so on).
I now see how the Rules pages on BGA are community editable - fair, I can contribute to improve if I choose to take it on. (I have already edited the Colt Express Rules)

I think BGA is GREAT for first time players (I, for sure, am one of them) for the following reasons. It exposes me to games I would never have thought to come across. It permits trials of games before committing to buying. It permits access to great games that are already out of print and/or are hard to source. It expands my game library well beyond my level of affordability, shelf space, and frankly attention span.

For simplicity, I look at the easiest Rules source on BGA (every time) when I join a new game - I look right at the in game rules text provided. Why wouldn't I? It's the easiest to get to. I don't have to drill into files on my phone, and I don't have to sit through a tutorial animation or video.

Santorini could have been better right out of the gate (I get it). Although now that I've been here (BGA) fora while, there are many other discrepancies on many other games that cause some research, before deciding to submit a bug ticket. It happens.

Overall, I'm looking to assist in the improvement of BGA as a whole (as an enthusiastic user) and not simply complain. :)
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