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First player always win by some kinds of Pop. I suggest add a rule like this: At the begining of the game , one player can ban one Pop from five Pops,and then another player can choice first or second play .That will make the game more skillful. Thank you!!!

pandadadaa wrote: ↑18 January 2022, 10:48 First player always win by some kinds of Pop. I suggest add a rule like this: At the begining of the game , one player can ban one Pop from five Pops,and then another player can choice first or second play .That will make the game more skillful. Thank you!!!

The last player has first pick of magic item. Do you have real evidence that the first player always win ?

Wolfjäger wrote: ↑18 January 2022, 11:05

pandadadaa wrote: ↑18 January 2022, 10:48 First player always win by some kinds of Pop. I suggest add a rule like this: At the begining of the game , one player can ban one Pop from five Pops,and then another player can choice first or second play .That will make the game more skillful. Thank you!!!

The last player has first pick of magic item. Do you have real evidence that the first player always win ?

Pop is more useful than magic item. If you get Gradon's Lair , you will win more easier. I know some artifacts can restraint Gradon's Lair , but you must enough lucky to get those artifacts.

Good idea! First player + Dragon's Lair is not fun to play against, because they can almost consistently win at Round 4. The second player don't have much leverage unless they get a good hand with attack cards or other strong engine to compete.

First player + Dragon's Lair is frustrating because it's so easy to use. There's no thought behind tapping for gold and buying monuments. Any player can win this way. But it's not the strongest build and is beatable.

Second player has a few similar advantages from taking first magic item.
Taking Alchemy can secure Alchemist Tower (as long as no Bard or Alchemist mage).
Taking Transmutation can secure Catacombs (as long as no Transmuter, Witch or Necromancer + Death magic item).

After you have your 8 cards either through draft or random selection one player is going to have a "winning" hand. If both players play perfectly one of them is still going to win because of a luck factor like getting Philosopher's Stone or getting 3 demons with Temple of the Abyss.

First player + Dragon's Lair is just one of those luck factors. If you remove or ban it one of the players is still going to win based on the luck of their hand.

sorryimlikethis wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 07:15 First player + Dragon's Lair is just one of those luck factors. If you remove or ban it one of the players is still going to win based on the luck of their hand.

There is already a whole thread about Dragon's Lair.

According to the game designer you are meant to be able to plan your route to victory from the draft. So you are already playing the game before the 1st turn of the game.

RicardoRix wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 09:03

sorryimlikethis wrote: ↑10 May 2022, 07:15 First player + Dragon's Lair is just one of those luck factors. If you remove or ban it one of the players is still going to win based on the luck of their hand.

There is already a whole thread about Dragon's Lair.

According to the game designer you are meant to be able to plan your route to victory from the draft. So you are already playing the game before the 1st turn of the game.

I didn't make this thread, I am merely responding to it

The premise of the thread is that first player is too strong because of Places of Power like Dragon's Lair.
My response is:
1. There are situations where being second player is more advantageous than first player.
2. Luck is an inevitable part of the game, being first player with Dragon's Lair available is just one element of this.

You can have two players drafting all the "correct" artefacts available on their pick and playing their turns perfectly with no mistakes. Unless there's a tie, one of them is still going to lose. And that's because of luck. Which is absolutely fine.

I don't disagree. But this thread seems to be flowing down the '1st turn Dragon's Lair' idea. Which is already being discussed in quite some length in the other thread.

Up !

I (and many others) also demand a ban pick.
The question is not to argue on the 'cheatyness, of dragon's lair and philosopher's stone (I don't have the patience nor the envy), but only to state a fact : we (a lot of players) don't like the games involving one of those 2 cards. They simply are not fun to use, not fun to fight, and picking them's usually the only way to avoid the other picking them and winning.

So, enabling the option allowing players to choose wether playing with or without them would be the best option to me (us). Those who don't see the problem would be allowed to continue as it has always been, and the others... Well, would be able to discard them.

(sorry for the mistakes : english's not my native language <3)

what about dragon teeth + infernal machine + witch : crary red combo for 20 min a turn