About war in Ukraine

[player1772]

I understand that Russia is committing war crimes, but wouldn't you guys agree that NATO instigated this whole conflict? The straight-line distance from the center of Moscow to the Russian-Ukrainian border is only 450 km. When the USA was faced with Russian presence in Cuba, about 1,950 km away from Washington DC, we threatened war if Russia did not back out. The Americans were faced with a far lesser threat, and they would have gone to war if Russia did not leave Cuba. I do not understand how the majority of people cannot see the hypocrisy here.

I'm not saying this to berate my country. I'm just trying to view this from an objective standpoint.

[robinzig]

Not sure if I'm just feeding a troll here, but giving the benefit of the doubt:

I understand that Russia is committing war crimes, but wouldn't you guys agree that NATO instigated this whole conflict?

No, of course I don't agree with that. It's a view that's not so much stupid, as simply incomprehensible to me.

Comparisons to the Cuban Missile Crisis are way off-base. For one thing, the US and NATO are not storing nukes in Ukraine. (Ukraine is not a NATO country so this would not be possible.) Yes Putin vehemently objects to the idea of Ukraine ever joining NATO (even though that's now much more likely as a direct result of his actions), but he should probably worry more about the NATO countries that are actually at Russia's borders (Latvia and Estonia - shortly to be Finland too. Also Poland if the Kaliningrad exclave is counted.) The idea that invading Ukraine was necessary to stop NATO attacking Russia is frankly beneath contempt and does not stand up to a minute's scrutiny.

Also, I imagine that back in 1962, having the other side's nukes just 100 miles or so from your border was a pretty big deal. But now we have intercontinental ballistic missiles - everyone knows that if Putin wanted to nuke Washington, or the US to nuke Moscow, they can do it without having any weapons based outside their own countries. There is no safety in distance any more. Which means it's completely irrational to worry specifically about nukes being kept just over your border, when it was surely completely rational 60 years ago.

While no-one can read Putin's mind, it seems clear to me that his actual rationale for this invasion is a mixture of 2 factors:
1) he believes that Ukraine is "not a real country", and really a part of Russia, and simply thinks he has the right to take it back for Russia, by force if necessary. [From a historical point of view he has a point here, but that's purely academic - Ukraine has been an independent country for 30 years and developing its own way, particularly in the last 10 years or so, even if he can snap his fingers and magic it back into being controlled by Russia, the people were never likely to take that without a fight.]
2) he detests the idea of a flourishing democracy right on Russia's doorstep - particularly in a country whose people have culturally so much in common with Russians and many of whom have family in Russia. Simply because it's likely that Russians who speak to Ukrainians will then start questioning why they have to put up with his autocracy.

[player1772]

The Monroe Doctrine is a US foreign policy asserting that any foreign power attempting to influence regions in the west would be viewed as a threat to US security. The doctrine also stated that the US would not interfere in the internal affairs of European countries. But the US obviously does do this. In fact, we are all over the world doing exactly this.

If there was an alliance between Mexico and Russia that could have possibly led to Russians entering the country, do you not think this would concern the Americans? American foreign policy would not allow this to happen to THEM, but apparently it is okay if it is happening to SOMEONE ELSE. In other words, it's okay for us to do it to you, but not okay for you to do it to us.

I would also like to point out that I consider myself very fortunate to live in a liberal democracy. I know that Russians as well as others are not afforded the same rights that we have and take for granted every day. But it is just as important to understand that not everything is black and white.

[robinzig]

I'm grateful for continued rational debate, thanks. But I'm afraid you're still comparing apples to oranges - or really to the ghost of oranges rather than any actual fruit!

If there was an alliance between Mexico and Russia that could have possibly led to Russians entering the country, do you not think this would concern the Americans?

Of course it would. But how is this remotely analogous. Presumably Mexico plays the role of Ukraine here, but not only was there no alliance between Ukraine and the USA (ironically the two are much closer now because Ukraine is relying on Western powers, most notably the US, for defence assistance as well as trying to repair the damage caused by Russia), it's completely ludicrous to suggest that there was any prospect of US troops being stationed in Ukraine and crossing the border to attack Russia. (Just to clarify - the first part of that is quite possible, it's the idea of the US wanting to commit aggression against Russia that is ludicrous.)

I'm not defending every US foreign policy decision made since the end of the Cold War, far from it (and PS I'm British rather than American, so although I'm very much part of the "Western world" I likely have a slightly different perspective on the US from what you do), but I'm afraid your justifications for the Ukraine invasion read like you believe every word of Putin's propaganda.

[player1772]

I don't believe any of the propaganda from either side. I had watched RT videos before they were banned, and they were laughably ridiculous. At the same time, the same garbage is being thrown on western media as well. The bottom line is you can't trust the media.

In regards to the war in Ukraine, I still feel like you are not getting the point. This is a geopolitical war. The fact that NATO thinks they can turn Ukraine into a western bulwark on Russia's border and not receive any backlash is a testament to how horrible US and NATO foreign policy really is. The Russians had repeatedly said they would not tolerate this, and they were ignored. It was decided in April of 2008 that Ukraine was going to become a part of NATO. The Russians viewed this as an existential threat to their survival.

I really would like to go back to the foreign policy argument I made in my earlier post. The American government will not tolerate any foreign interference in the western hemisphere, period. If the same situation were unfolding along the American/Mexican border, the Americans would react the same way, if not worse (they are a stronger military power). The only difference being the war would be much shorter.

It is really sad to see that Ukrainians have to suffer from this stupid conflict. I agree they deserve to have their land back. This should have never happened. But it was disastrous US and NATO foreign policy that led us all here.

Much of my views on this war have admittedly been influenced by Professor John Mearsheimer from the University of Chicago. If you are interested in what he has to say, please watch his videos on YouTube. You can watch one of his videos here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBpeh7uWig4

[Dennis W]

Wait a minute....

I clearly remember the stated objective of this 'Special Military Operation" to be killing Nazi's. Directly from Putin's mouth. Since they are leaving now - does that mean the World is now once again safe from Nazi's?

I see many attempts at analogies here.... May I?

For me - it's similar to why Japan felt they needed to murder American Servicemen at Pearl Harbor. Japan was expansionist and conquering innocent people in the name of Empire. USA enacts Oil embargo to slow their roll. Cue Bombs and Surprise Attack.

The only people who talk about NATO invading Russia are Fear Mongers using it to keep power. Russia regularly invades and subjugates it's neighbors. But we are supposed to just ignore pleas for help from innocent people trying to live in a democracy?

Replace 'Oil Embargo' with 'Supporting a Democracy' and that threatens the planned renewed Russia Empire. Cue Bombs and murdering innocent people who never had a thought about invading Russia. Seriously. NATO invade Russia? Better off trying to herd cats than getting the votes needed to freaking INVADE Russia. Seriously. How is this even a topic in the Real World.

You would have Gov't toppling riots in many Euro Countries at the thought of Invading Russia cuz NATO now wants to create an Empire?

And the tired trope of - Yeah I know one side is Propaganda, but I can't trust either side. Right. 1000's of journalists from all over the world reporting different perspectives. But since one side is pure propaganda, they all get the stain?

I'm curious - Was the country of Georgia conquered and subjugated because Nazi's were getting ready to invade?

And History is fraught with examples of horrible mistakes. Why can't we be better now? Why use what you consider a Wrong XXX years ago to justify a Wrong now?

Fear. Used to obtain (Trump) and keep (Putin) power.

The righteous rise with burning eyes
Of hatred and ill will
Madmen fed on fear and lies
To beat and burn and kill
They say there are strangers who threaten us
Our immigrants and infidels
They say there is strangeness too dangerous
In our theaters and bookstore shelves
Those who know what's best for us
Must rise and save us from ourselves
Quick to judge, quick to anger
Slow to understand
Ignorance and prejudice
And fear walk hand in hand

Rush

[Onion Jack]

##### player contested moderation and was banned #######

[Czechoslovak Wolfdog]

I understand that Russia is committing war crimes, but wouldn't you guys agree that NATO instigated this whole conflict?

I don't believe any of the propaganda from either side. I had watched RT videos before they were banned, and they were laughably ridiculous. At the same time, the same garbage is being thrown on western media as well. The bottom line is you can't trust the media.

In regards to the war in Ukraine, I still feel like you are not getting the point. This is a geopolitical war. The fact that NATO thinks they can turn Ukraine into a western bulwark on Russia's border and not receive any backlash is a testament to how horrible US and NATO foreign policy really is. The Russians had repeatedly said they would not tolerate this, and they were ignored. It was decided in April of 2008 that Ukraine was going to become a part of NATO. The Russians viewed this as an existential threat to their survival.

I really would like to go back to the foreign policy argument I made in my earlier post. The American government will not tolerate any foreign interference in the western hemisphere, period. If the same situation were unfolding along the American/Mexican border, the Americans would react the same way, if not worse (they are a stronger military power). The only difference being the war would be much shorter.

It is really sad to see that Ukrainians have to suffer from this stupid conflict. I agree they deserve to have their land back. This should have never happened. But it was disastrous US and NATO foreign policy that led us all here.

Much of my views on this war have admittedly been influenced by Professor John Mearsheimer from the University of Chicago. If you are interested in what he has to say, please watch his videos on YouTube. You can watch one of his videos here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBpeh7uWig4

You are confusing the cause and the consequence. One country with collonial history invaded the second country and you are blaming for that other alliance of countries. You can see countries wanting to join NATO after beginning the war, that countries are afraid of Russian Federation. I come from country which experienced Russian / Soviet occupation too and propagandist "liberation" after II WW and turning away of the western countries so I can see now the same twisting from the Russian government as in the past. Soviet Union occupied my country claiming the same - protection from NATO alliance - as you claim now. Experience is not transferable that's why the biggest Ukraine's helpers and supporters is Poland together with my country because we both experienced German war propaganda (I guess you do not believe nazi story about Poland invading the Germany?) and then Russian war propaganda in both cases western countries turned away. I am not sure if you learned these things in history in school because its understanding is necessary to undesrtand nowadays events. If you are not happy with western world and media which offer you lot of opinion streams instead of those from Russian side where there is just one "truth", you can move to any other country, where media suit your opinion. But as I said if there is no experience with Russian "just one truth", then it's really hard to undesrtand it, they repeat same propaganda since 1968.

[player1772]

Thank you for your reply, Dennis. I agree with you that Putin's claim of there being Nazis in Ukraine is absolutely ridiculous. I am not in disagreement with you on this. The fact is, all countries need to have a pretext for war before they invade another country. All countries do this, even the United States. And many of these are actually false flags with the intent to deceive the public.

I personally believe that the real reason for the war is Putin's refusal to allow Ukraine to be used as a western bulwark on Russia's border. I have heard many compelling arguments from multiple reputable sources, and this makes the most sense to me. The media would have you believe that Russia is trying to conquer all territories it had lost after the dissolution of the former Soviet Union. Again, there is no evidence to support this claim. Russia does not want NATO troops in close proximity to Moscow. Russia does not want a US ally on its border for the same reason that the US would never tolerate a Russian ally on its border.

I'm not sure why you brought up the attack on Pearl Harbor, but I'll add some things to this topic since you brought it up. Did you know that the American government knew the attack was going to happen? They allowed it to happen because President Roosevelt desperately needed a reason to enter the war. America was an isolationist country at the time, and the American people were very much against entering the war. The attack on Pearl Harbor was a blessing in disguise for Roosevelt, because this gave him the opportunity to organize the nation's manpower and resources for global war.

To quote wikipedia - "Russia falsely accused Georgia of committing "genocide" and "aggression against South Ossetia". It launched a full-scale land, air and sea invasion of Georgia, including its undisputed territory, on 8 August, referring to it as a "peace enforcement" operation." Russia also lied about its reason to invade Georgia, as stated by Wikipedia. Wikipedia also correctly states that the United States falsely accused Saddam of harboring and supporting al-Qaeda. Both of these examples show false flags presented by two of the most powerful countries on earth in order for them to continue with their invasion plans. So no, there were never any Nazis in Ukraine or Georgia. The real reason for the invasion of Georgia was NATO's promise to include them in the alliance in the near future. Russia was not going to allow this.

In regards to your statements about NATO, it is very important to understand that NATO is not just a defensive alliance. There are many examples you can search for on the internet that shows NATO attacking and invading other countries. Having an enemy alliance on your border is definitely a security risk to your country.

I think it has been proven that the media on both sides of the war have been lying through their teeth. I will agree though that the Russian media is much worse in this regard.

[PerfectPlayer]

Russian missiles have now hit Poland and killed 2 people: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-63593855

Will BGA's response still be "love and peace" and total inaction?