Indian card - insensitive to indigenous people

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susieadders
Posts: 2
Joined: 19 May 2016, 19:46

Indian card - insensitive to indigenous people

Post by susieadders »

Hi, I just want to open a discussion about whether the Indians card should be removed from the game. Increasingly over the years we are realizing the extent of the shocking genocide and abuse that indigenous people in North America have faced at the hands of the European settlers. This occurred in early American history but also in our lifetimes and is ongoing in the form of stereotyping and unconscious bias in society. The whole ‘cowboy and Indian’ dialogue is part of the stereotyping that fuels poor treatment of indigenous people in modern society. As the world moves towards correcting our wrongs, including the Indian card in this game is increasingly disrespectful to a persecuted population.
We can do our part by removing it from the game.
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Yorgad
Posts: 131
Joined: 21 October 2012, 13:27

Re: Indian card - insensitive to indigenous people

Post by Yorgad »

Hi,

Although it is true that the representation of indegenous people attacking cowboys is a myth (casualties provocked by hostile natives is negligible in regards of actual populations at the time), removing a card is also affecting game mechanics. I believe a better approach would be to update the card with an alternate illustration (e.g. gunfight, or bandit attack).

Now I feel it would be more relevant to adress this matter to the game editor directly (contact: https://www.dvgiochi.com/contatti/) rather than here on BGA which provides a digital copy of the current market. Hopefully a revised edition will lead to an updated content on BGA eventually.

Cheers,
Y.
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voriki
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Joined: 28 August 2020, 12:27

Re: Indian card - insensitive to indigenous people

Post by voriki »

I understand the sentiment, and it is something that should be dealed with directly with DVGiochi, but at the same time, it's never meant to be insulting towards the Native American tribes.
The cards are a hommage to the olden days with spaghetti westerns, do we really need to cchange every little detail of the past because it's no longer politically correct in the current timeline? Do we have to change history, or learn from it, and accept things were different back then?
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Yorgad
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Joined: 21 October 2012, 13:27

Re: Indian card - insensitive to indigenous people

Post by Yorgad »

History will change by essence (Historian constantly revise earlier interpretations of the past in light of a continously changing present).

Also not everyone knows (especially kids) that Bang! is based on some fictional spaghetti westerns that does not reflect the reality.

I believe the topic is not about being "politically correct" or "change history" or "accept things", but rather "sanitize" or "update" cultural references to prevent misleading stereotypes perpetuation for future generations to come.

Cheers,
Y.
kuzestanx
Posts: 19
Joined: 07 January 2022, 03:09

Re: Indian card - insensitive to indigenous people

Post by kuzestanx »

Interesting, what you think about other "Indian" cards. Yes, in the original game there is only "Indians!", but each addon significantly expands the Indian theme (the character "Apache Kid" from Dodge Sity, "Squaw" from A&D, "Talisman" from Gold Rush, "Curse" and "Blessing" and, it seems, something else). Should these cards also be cancelled?
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Yorgad
Posts: 131
Joined: 21 October 2012, 13:27

Re: Indian card - insensitive to indigenous people

Post by Yorgad »

I don't know (I don't own the game), do these card perpetuate the (wrong) stereotype of native people attacking cowboys?
Why would you "cancel" them? Indigenous culture existed.

Cheers,
Y.
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JaderSegatto
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Joined: 24 February 2016, 02:24

Re: Indian card - insensitive to indigenous people

Post by JaderSegatto »

The game is based on the movies, not on actual history!
Tsaion
Posts: 2
Joined: 17 October 2022, 00:40

Re: Indian card - insensitive to indigenous people

Post by Tsaion »

There was a custom game on * that was essentially Bang! in disguise. It was really good, until Bang! makers took it down for copyright even though it wasn't making any money. Go figure.

Anyway, in it alot of things were renamed. Indians, for exampe, was "Release the Hounds" instead with a portrait of rabid dogs.

Instead of a wild west theme it was a barfight. Stools, trays and pool sticks as weapons instead of guns.

It was funny and creative. Shame the Bang! makers opted to shut it down instead of collaborating with the guys who made that mod. It was beautiful.

*moderator edit: please do not name other gaming sites
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Guy Poorie
Posts: 1
Joined: 18 October 2022, 00:00

Re: Indian card - insensitive to indigenous people

Post by Guy Poorie »

susieadders wrote: 16 May 2022, 15:42 Hi, I just want to open a discussion about whether the Indians card should be removed from the game. Increasingly over the years we are realizing the extent of the shocking genocide and abuse that indigenous people in North America have faced at the hands of the European settlers. This occurred in early American history but also in our lifetimes and is ongoing in the form of stereotyping and unconscious bias in society. The whole ‘cowboy and Indian’ dialogue is part of the stereotyping that fuels poor treatment of indigenous people in modern society. As the world moves towards correcting our wrongs, including the Indian card in this game is increasingly disrespectful to a persecuted population.
We can do our part by removing it from the game.
Look, I just want to point out that there are some clips on yt with a guy who dresses up in traditional Mexican, Chinese, etc costumes and asks...Americans what they think of him. The answer is always: "You shouldn't do that because it's offensive!"
While in the countries where those costumes are part of their culture they say: "I like it, and I am not offended. Everyone should ware it."

The game is like in the movies...
When I was a kid I liked the Indians so much for their mysticism, connection with nature, bow and arrow skill and hunting. I liked the cowboy heroes as much for many reasons but very different reasons and never felt like Indians were the bad evil batch, even when they tried to portray them like that.
In the game when you play the "Indians" card it's like if you have the means to fight them then you live, if not, they prevail. How do the cowboys win? if they have bangs because "if no guns then no get off my property", isn't this America still today?

I think Indians are very cool and are part of the 'western" culture...for what it's worth.
I feel like we are cancelling so much * based on "trying to correct" what previous generations screwed up that we end up teaching our kids that those things never happened and because they never happened we shouldn't call people this and that and we should have that kind of people here and there even if they don't fit, just because we need to force this appearance of social justice and culture fairness...all this while China gov is committing genocide and all sorts of dirty deeds, North Korea chiefs do only God knows, Russia is playing the good old "we own what we say we own" and playing the nuclear threat every * day..., Iran, Afghanistan...then we have the democratic school shootings, mall shootings, and so much * in this world like food waste and water pollution of which the entire civilised population is guilty of.
And this cancelling...I don't understand it. I just don't. Western movies should be cancelled then, right? What's up with that movie Revenant? That should also be deleted or changed.
If an American is playing an Asian character it's whitewashing. If a black person is playing a white character it's correctitude.

Someone said: "Also not everyone knows (especially kids) that Bang! is based on some fictional spaghetti westerns that does not reflect the reality."

Yeah, because so many people are raising their kids with their backs at them, leaving them be on tiktok it's no wonder that not everyone knows what a fictional spaghetti western is.
We need to censor contextual stuff so that our kids won't need to look into a subject or our assistance.

Sorry for the rant...I just don't buy this.

*moderator edit: please use family-friendly language
Jersus
Posts: 1
Joined: 20 October 2022, 22:11

Re: Indian card - insensitive to indigenous people

Post by Jersus »

This has nothing to do with canceling and everything to do with sensitivity. The term "Indian" can be used by indigenous people to whom it was incorrectly applied, if they choose to take ownership of it and want to use it to empower themselves. If you're an accepted part of such a community, you can probably use it too, but that's up to the community to decide. Otherwise, nope. It's incumbent upon us, as the descendants of settlers, to acknowledge the harms of the past and listen to the people who were wronged. I'm not sure how things are in the States, but up here in Canada there is a growing recognition of the depth of the damage done and the impact it still has today. This is not history, this is the current reality. If anything, the people who refuse to acknowledge this are the ones truly guilty of changing history, because the history they uphold is a lie. Talk about cancel culture.

Yes, a card in a card game may seem pretty innocuous. If you are someone whose parents, grandparents and great-grandparents were subject to abuse at the hands of colonizers, and who is still getting the butt end of systemic racism every day, and you can tell me that it's not a problem, that's fine. Otherwise, you need to sit down and listen. Not speak.
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