3-player Arena

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McKenner1122
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Joined: 17 April 2021, 14:25

Re: 3-player Arena

Post by McKenner1122 »

Agree. RL Catan player, the adaptation trade system needs work (and I dearly miss being able to freely table talk face to face, but… online is what online is…)

3 player is boring and pointless. Arena should be 4p.
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DVC
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Joined: 20 May 2020, 19:57

Re: 3-player Arena

Post by DVC »

With one day to go, does anyone have any inside information as to what the “gurus” have decided to do for the next season? I’m really hoping that they see sense and I’ll be able to compete again. But where are they in this debate? Have these comments been taken into consideration? And who are they? Please tell me they are not selected from the players currently doing well in the 3p season…
MrBeardy
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Joined: 28 January 2022, 11:23

Re: 3-player Arena

Post by MrBeardy »

3p is better than 4p and in trying to get people for arena matches fewer players makes it quicker to get games started.

Gurus are selected by reputation and number of games played so those deciding are those playing most often.
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DVC
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Re: 3-player Arena

Post by DVC »

MrBeardy wrote: 10 October 2022, 10:45 3p is better than 4p and in trying to get people for arena matches fewer players makes it quicker to get games started.

Gurus are selected by reputation and number of games played so those deciding are those playing most often.
In which universe do you exist? Please explain how 3-player is anything more than luck of the dice. There is so much more strategy to 4p - ask any regular tournament player.

Playing most often - but 3-player games? You don’t seem to have understood my point.
MrBeardy
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Re: 3-player Arena

Post by MrBeardy »

With a reply like that you're not going to encourage people to see your point.
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DVC
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Re: 3-player Arena

Post by DVC »

MrBeardy wrote: 10 October 2022, 15:01 With a reply like that you're not going to encourage people to see your point.
With a reply like this, you are not really replying, are you?

My main point was that if the people voting are the ones who somehow enjoy the 3-player experience, why would they vote to change it? If they are playing a lot of Arena games for this season, then they clearly do. How will change be effected?

My secondary point is the argument regarding the game experience of 4-player in comparison to 3-player. If you read the whole of this thread, you will see many arguments from experienced players explaining why 4-player is better in a competitive arena, so I’m reluctant to go through them all again. You blankly state “3p is better than 4p” without any reasoning, which suggests that you have disregarded all this advice. I am genuinely interested as to why you hold this view - what strengths does 3p have in a competitive context? That, surely, is the point of this thread - to debate that issue?

The one point you make - quicker to get into a game - doesn’t hold up, because the game you end up getting into more quickly is an inferior, imbalanced version of Catan. Far better to wait for a better game. And if you make it 4p, tournament players will actually want to compete seriously.
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Jellby
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Re: 3-player Arena

Post by Jellby »

The gurus are those who played the most games, Arena or not. That favors those who like the current Arena settings, but also those who play shorter games, or more easy to find games (i.e. 2p games usually). This is for every game, not just Catan. That doesn't mean the gurus will necessarily vote to keep the current settings, but there is a certain amount of "self-selection".
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Stocksheep 9
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Re: 3-player Arena

Post by Stocksheep 9 »

Catan 4p relies significantly more on luck than Catan 3p, where planning ahead and strategic choices actually make sense rather than blow up in your face.

This is not an opinion but a simple fact of the game. More people equals more chance to get blocked in before a player can help it equals less strategy and more luck of the dice.

3p is also a lot more versatile, in the sense that you can try out different techniques with a more balanced measure of succes. ie: city and development card game, harbor game or a more rounded approach. With 3p you can take an educated guess which tiles and alternative tiles will remain available (strategy) whereas with 4p it is a complete jungle (gamble, luck).

There are nuances, but that is the general sense of things. It is not a matter of opinion in that regard. It is a matter of preference (prefer strategy over luck is 3p, prefer luck over strategy is 4p).

These are my two cents (current rank 2 so I have had my share of experience).
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DVC
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Re: 3-player Arena

Post by DVC »

Stocksheep 9 wrote: 11 October 2022, 10:49 Catan 4p relies significantly more on luck than Catan 3p, where planning ahead and strategic choices actually make sense rather than blow up in your face.

This is not an opinion but a simple fact of the game. More people equals more chance to get blocked in before a player can help it equals less strategy and more luck of the dice.

3p is also a lot more versatile, in the sense that you can try out different techniques with a more balanced measure of succes. ie: city and development card game, harbor game or a more rounded approach. With 3p you can take an educated guess which tiles and alternative tiles will remain available (strategy) whereas with 4p it is a complete jungle (gamble, luck).

There are nuances, but that is the general sense of things. It is not a matter of opinion in that regard. It is a matter of preference (prefer strategy over luck is 3p, prefer luck over strategy is 4p).

These are my two cents (current rank 2 so I have had my share of experience).

Thanks for your considered response. It is nice to hear from a player who has clearly had success in the 3p arena, so you know the nuances of the game.

However, I believe that you are looking at the concept of game ‘strategy’ too narrowly, to the extent that your definition of ‘luck’ is compromised.

Catan strategy is more than just ‘planning ahead’ - you also need to deal on multiple fronts with other players trying to scupper those plans. And the further those plans start to bear fruit, the more they will get in your way. Dealing with getting blocked in and competing for space is all part of the game. You need to be able to adapt to this, shift focus and trade effectively to get the edge over your opponents. With 3 good players after you who can see what you are trying to do, this can quickly become a tricky minefield.

What you describe as ‘strategic choices blowing up in your face’ is part of the challenge, and the main reason I keep coming back to the game after many years of online and tournament play. Things are rarely certain in (4-player) Catan, but that isn’t down to luck - it’s because the game is innately interactive. Catan doesn’t follow the rules of many dry Eurogames that encourage you to build an engine and sit back to reap the rewards. You have to work for it, and know how to handle ‘tower defence’ situations.

3-player games are more likely to allow you to follow a plan because you have so much space to develop into that you can plough ahead, often without even needing to bother with trading. For starters, that cuts out an entire strategic element. You then embark on a race to the available good spots (whereas in a 4p game, these will all usually have been taken), and that is essentially luck - the dice will determine who expands and builds fastest.

As a 3p game develops, any 2 players that have a conflict of interest (spaces or dev cards) will repeatedly target their rival to slow each other down, leading in most cases to the third player winning the race. It doesn’t really matter what strategy you’ve adopted - if the dice are with you and the other two fight, you’ll win.

The versatility you describe for strategy is not only possible, but much better balanced in a 4-player game. All those strategies you mention can win, but you have the extra layer of depth and competition I outlined above. You can also very much predict where your opponents will place during setup - it’s just more difficult. And that makes it MORE strategic, not less.

Given our disagreement over definition of luck vs strategy, I don’t accept your point in the final paragraph. I would say that if you want a proper challenge with more to think about, you have to play with 4. If you want to play on family mode, stick with 3.

And do we really want an Arena stuck in family mode?

My experience - 25+ years, at least 10,000 games, 5x Catan World Championship rep. for the UK.
Stroom
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Joined: 14 July 2016, 19:10

Re: 3-player Arena

Post by Stroom »

I agree with DVC. 3-player is actually more luck based and "friendly" once you pass a certain skill level. 3-player is more mechanical and it is harder to catch the runaway leader (who usually becomes one due to luck not a particularly skillful play).
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