3-player Arena

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Tharnduil
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Joined: 22 February 2020, 16:43

Re: 3-player Arena

Post by Tharnduil »

Also agree that 3 player Catan is basically meaningless to even play, but just wanted to clarify the arena thing.

The old season ended at that time (July 9th or 12th). All games ended their current settings of games and adopted the new ones for the new season. Catan just had an extremely short season because of the release when the season was almost finished. That is why it seemed like they "changed" the rules when in fact just a new season started.

Yeah it would be tremendous if they were to switch it back to 4 player, but I doubt that will happen. Just have three months of no Arena. My biggest fear is that those few players that like 3 player Catan will be chosen for 'Gurus' as this would make the game unplayable on this site, well Arena at least.
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Jellby
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Joined: 31 December 2013, 12:22

Re: 3-player Arena

Post by Jellby »

Play a lot of non-arena games, and you may be chosen as a guru.
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Tharnduil
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Joined: 22 February 2020, 16:43

Re: 3-player Arena

Post by Tharnduil »

So you are saying....
that even though I would rather play in the arena instead of waiting around for non-arena games often which don't get filled or if they do take much longer and in general for me feel less rewarding/fun, but I need to grind it out anyways so that I can "hopefully" get picked as a Guru to vote on the settings of the game I'm grinding out to then be part of a group that votes on the arena settings to "hopefully" not get out voted when trying to change the arena settings to 4 player so that after these three months I don't have to suffer grinding out non-arena matches and get to play the settings and style that I wished I had been doing for these past three months?

Great plan nothing can go wrong!
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Jellby
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Joined: 31 December 2013, 12:22

Re: 3-player Arena

Post by Jellby »

I'm just saying the gurus are picked from all played games, not just Arena. While it's true that most Arena games will be played by people who like the current settings, nothing forces you to play Arena, and you can play with your favourite settings outside Arena as much as you want (as long as there are other players willing to play, which is also the case in Arena, anyway).
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DVC
Posts: 22
Joined: 20 May 2020, 19:57

Re: 3-player Arena

Post by DVC »

Tharnduil wrote: 18 July 2022, 16:19 Also agree that 3 player Catan is basically meaningless to even play, but just wanted to clarify the arena thing.

The old season ended at that time (July 9th or 12th). All games ended their current settings of games and adopted the new ones for the new season. Catan just had an extremely short season because of the release when the season was almost finished. That is why it seemed like they "changed" the rules when in fact just a new season started.

Yeah it would be tremendous if they were to switch it back to 4 player, but I doubt that will happen. Just have three months of no Arena. My biggest fear is that those few players that like 3 player Catan will be chosen for 'Gurus' as this would make the game unplayable on this site, well Arena at least.
Agree it’s ridiculous and I’ve now vowed to give up on Arena and just host regular 4p games. It’s just a shame - 4p Arena would have attracted a lot of top tournament players from across the world. 3p will attract, well, I don’t know who! Apparently some people like rolling dice and getting lucky.

My complaint was that while it was a new season across the site, the rankings for the 4-player ‘mini-season’ rolled over, which is effectively the same as changing the player count mid-season.

Arena on BGA could have been a great thing - it’s a very good implementation of the game. But the gurus have screwed it up.
silentProtest
Posts: 171
Joined: 26 March 2022, 20:12

Re: 3-player Arena

Post by silentProtest »

@Ginooo since you wanted to discuss, got some points FOR 3 player arena (hope youre tracking this thread still^^)

having too good spots and too much space (and too fast/easy wins), depends on setting, VP needed to win (which is fixed here) and youre opponents (which is not fixed^^) ...

and the point Im actually serious about: since a large part of the balance (is there really such a thing as balance in vanilla catan? O.o :P -half joking ) depends on the players, and a noob (or a player that is waaay worse than the rest) offsets the balance so much that the meta swings way harder to exploit and manipulate said player, instead of focusing on all the other stuff, it would be better to play competitive without noobs/"players that are waaay worse than the rest".
the chance to get a noob to a table with 4 players is 50% higher than with 3 players. (would like to hear your opinion on that)

also to all who are saying that 4 player games are waaayy better than 3 player ones. Maybe you are just used to it and it's Status-quo-bias ? And for the argument: "but all rl tournaments I know, are played with 4" - My guess the decision is not based on whether it is worse or better (/more balanced), but mostly on that it is more time efficient! [If it is about balance, then w[hy]tf is vanilla played and not knights and cities ??]

Edit: more food for thought: this seems to be a thread about complaining about the dis-balance of 3 player catan. why is noone complaining about how the games are evaluated at the end, elo and arena score (I will make a post on that... someday..) ?? why are there places?? there should be a winner and 2-3 last places, or not ?? and winner being not the one with the most points, but the one having the needed amount on his turn. player starting to play for second place instead of trashing the leader, for the chance to win, screws the meta way more, does it not ? O.o

PS: Im just playing devil advocate, btw; well mostly. I do hate having 1 noob at the table. It just kicks a lot of the usual "balance" out of the window, imo. (also not that unexperienced - played a shit ton 10 years ago :) )
PPS: And the stuff about places instead of winner and last places, Im also serious about...

Edit2: hoped for some input from the tournaments players to these points, but since gino started the post I guess I only citate him^^
Ginooo wrote: 12 July 2022, 15:59

Is this player count a final decision or is there any possibility to set it back to 4p if there are enough people who think the same as i do? Im really curious to hear other opinions too.
Last edited by silentProtest on 02 September 2022, 03:56, edited 3 times in total.
silentProtest
Posts: 171
Joined: 26 March 2022, 20:12

Re: 3-player Arena

Post by silentProtest »

DVC wrote: 14 July 2022, 21:15 I absolutely agree with you - disastrous decision. I’ve been trying to argue the case in the thread on the change announcement.

I’m a long-time tournament player and have also played thousands of games online over the years. For the base game, 4p is ALWAYS best - for balance, strategy, nuance and, well, fun. 3p is quicker, sure, and is OK for a casual game, but it ruins competitive play, which is surely the raison d’etre of Arena?

I really hope they reconsider and switch back to 4-player, or I’m probably done for the season.
hey, you did just make a point why the first season should be a 3 player one. Its easier, faster, so it would draw more people to arena - and next season should be 4 players (with then way more participants :) )
My opinion is, it should variate - maybe in a 3 4 4 3 4 4 - turnus. [but this woulnt work, because the guru system is drek :( ]
silentProtest
Posts: 171
Joined: 26 March 2022, 20:12

Re: 3-player Arena

Post by silentProtest »

Jellby wrote: 19 July 2022, 08:33 I'm just saying the gurus are picked from all played games, not just Arena. While it's true that most Arena games will be played by people who like the current settings, nothing forces you to play Arena, and you can play with your favourite settings outside Arena as much as you want (as long as there are other players willing to play, which is also the case in Arena, anyway).

got proof ?? (it seems that players who play arena games, are way more likely to get chosen, or even exlusivly chosen, if there are enough arena players...)
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Jellby
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Joined: 31 December 2013, 12:22

Re: 3-player Arena

Post by Jellby »

No, the only proof I got is the official description ("For each game on BGA, the most prolific players in the last 30 days are eligible to become the Game Gurus") and the fact that I've been selected as guru for games I've played only once (and obviously not Arena).

What undoubtedly happens is that people who play shorter (3 player) games will, other things being equal, end up playing more games than those who play longer (4 player) games.
silentProtest
Posts: 171
Joined: 26 March 2022, 20:12

Re: 3-player Arena

Post by silentProtest »

bump, for more input ...
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