List of scenarios with rules not fully implemented?

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ratpfink
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List of scenarios with rules not fully implemented?

Post by ratpfink »

Can we have a list of the broken scenarios so we can avoid them? Better would be to disable them until they're working correctly, but until then...

e.g. NIJMEGEN BRIDGES the collapsible units don't work, which makes this scenario very un-fun for the allies. And also for the Axis, because I will just quit any game where it's this screwed up.
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Tisaac
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Re: List of scenarios with rules not fully implemented?

Post by Tisaac »

ratpfink wrote: 15 July 2022, 05:15 Can we have a list of the broken scenarios so we can avoid them? Better would be to disable them until they're working correctly, but until then...

e.g. NIJMEGEN BRIDGES the collapsible units don't work, which makes this scenario very un-fun for the allies. And also for the Axis, because I will just quit any game where it's this screwed up.
That's your opinion, but recall that they are still playable and no balance issue when playing in 2 ways.
The missing feature are trains, collapsible boats and sabotage action, so there are only 3 scenarios with one of these feature.
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diamant
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Re: List of scenarios with rules not fully implemented?

Post by diamant »

Tisaac wrote: 15 July 2022, 06:49That's your opinion, but recall that they are still playable and no balance issue when playing in 2 ways.
That’s also my opinion. Game implementations on BGA must respect their rules, otherwise don’t do them!

A scenario for memory 44 is a game in itself. You can’t choose to change the special rules carefully crafted by its designer, because I guess you don’t have the skills to design a scenario that players can appreciate.
Because a board game is not meant to be playable or balanced, but to provide pleasure to the players who play it.

If you did not intend to respect the rules of some scenarios, you should not choose them, as for the 3 scenarios of the Terrain Pack which are mainly used to show the use of the ground tiles contained in the extension.
If these scenarios were to remain as they are, I think it would be better not to propose them anymore because they provide a disastrous gaming experience.
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Tisaac
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Re: List of scenarios with rules not fully implemented?

Post by Tisaac »

diamant wrote: 15 July 2022, 18:18
Tisaac wrote: 15 July 2022, 06:49That's your opinion, but recall that they are still playable and no balance issue when playing in 2 ways.
That’s also my opinion. Game implementations on BGA must respect their rules, otherwise don’t do them!

A scenario for memory 44 is a game in itself. You can’t choose to change the special rules carefully crafted by its designer, because I guess you don’t have the skills to design a scenario that players can appreciate.
Because a board game is not meant to be playable or balanced, but to provide pleasure to the players who play it.

If you did not intend to respect the rules of some scenarios, you should not choose them, as for the 3 scenarios of the Terrain Pack which are mainly used to show the use of the ground tiles contained in the extension.
If these scenarios were to remain as they are, I think it would be better not to propose them anymore because they provide a disastrous gaming experience.
Oh you are talking about the very well crafted scenario containing a sabotage action which is full of contradiction rulewise? The terrain pack rulebook is different from the summary card that is different again from the FAQ on that topic. Tell me again about careful crafted scenario...
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diamant
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Re: List of scenarios with rules not fully implemented?

Post by diamant »

Tisaac wrote: 15 July 2022, 18:21Oh you are talking about the very well crafted scenario containing a sabotage action which is full of contradiction rulewise? The terrain pack rulebook is different from the summary card that is different again from the FAQ on that topic. Tell me again about careful crafted scenario...
I understand that it’s a bit confusing to find out all this mess of rules all at once. But it must be considered that most Memoir '44 players who have bought extensions and various supplements have become accustomed to the new rules that each addition to the game brought over periods counted in years.

I just checked the rules of the Schwammenauel Dam scenario, and I found no contradiction with the rules of the Terrain Pack booklet and the FAQs. There is just too much cross-referencing from one part of the booklet to another.
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Tisaac
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Re: List of scenarios with rules not fully implemented?

Post by Tisaac »

diamant wrote: 15 July 2022, 19:58
Tisaac wrote: 15 July 2022, 18:21Oh you are talking about the very well crafted scenario containing a sabotage action which is full of contradiction rulewise? The terrain pack rulebook is different from the summary card that is different again from the FAQ on that topic. Tell me again about careful crafted scenario...
I understand that it’s a bit confusing to find out all this mess of rules all at once. But it must be considered that most Memoir '44 players who have bought extensions and various supplements have become accustomed to the new rules that each addition to the game brought over periods counted in years.

I just checked the rules of the Schwammenauel Dam scenario, and I found no contradiction with the rules of the Terrain Pack booklet and the FAQs. There is just too much cross-referencing from one part of the booklet to another.
TP, page 7 :
"This rule may be used to blow-up a fuel depot, a factory complex, a radar station or any other strategic objective.
To destroy the objective, the unit must be on the corresponding hex and roll its Close Assault combat dice. If a Star is rolled, the objective
is hit and destroyed. Take the Battle Star as a Victory medal, and remove the destroyed terrain hex from the map.For another example of a potential Sabotage rule, check out the Blowing up a dam entry in the Landmarks section of this booklet."
=> this indicate nothing about the timing, and talk about 1 dice for 1 objective

Summary card :
"Roll 2 dices at the beginning of the turn... once the scenario-specificed number is reached, the Landmark is demolished"
Now it sounds like it has lifepoint, and talk about 2 dices at the beginning of the turn

French FAQ about that specific scenario :
"Q. L'Axe peut-il saboter les deux barrages ?
R. Oui, si les deux barrages sont occupés suffisamment longtemps pour que chacun d'eux reçoive quatre jetons étoile."
Now it talks about 4 life points but that's never indicated anywhere else.

So really, I have no idea how it should work in this case (waiting for publisher answer for a couple days).
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jeroenh
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Re: List of scenarios with rules not fully implemented?

Post by jeroenh »

You are aware of the Official FAQ document linked from Memoir44.com (https://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/advanced-play/) that lists some answers to these exact questions that have been previously cleared with the designer?

General Sabotage
Q. When a Dam is Sabotaged, is the unit on the Dam eliminated?
A. No. Sabotaging a Dam does not mean the Dam is blown up. The Dam terrain hex, when Sabotaged, is not removed and the unit on the Dam is not eliminated.

Q. Are dice rolled each turn, after the sabotaging player’s Command Card is played, regardless of the sector? For example, if you were playing a center section card, would dice still be rolled if the Dam was in one of the flanks?
A. Yes. You roll to Sabotage as long as one of the Dams is occupied by a sabotaging unit.
Schwammenauel Dam
Q. When a Dam is Sabotaged in this scenario, is the unit on the Dam eliminated?
A. No. Sabotaging either Dam does not mean the Dam is blown up. The Sabotaged Dam terrain hex is not removed and the unit on the Dam is not eliminated.

Q. Are dice rolled each turn, after the Axis player Command card is played, regardless of the sector? For example, if you were playing a center section card,would dice still be rolled for Dam Sabotage? A. Yes. You roll to Sabotage as long as one of the Dams is occupied by an Axis unit.

Q. If both Dams are occupied, and two Stars are rolled, does each Dam get one Star token, or does one Dam get both?
A. Each Dam gets one token. If only one Dam is occupied and two Stars are rolled, the 2nd Star rolled has no effect. (Terrain Pack p. 9)

Q. Is it possible for the Axis to Sabotage both Dams?
A. Yes, if the Axis player occupies both Dam hexes and rolls four Stars for each Dam over a number of turns.
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Tisaac
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Re: List of scenarios with rules not fully implemented?

Post by Tisaac »

jeroenh wrote: 15 July 2022, 22:42 You are aware of the Official FAQ document linked from Memoir44.com (https://www.daysofwonder.com/memoir44/en/advanced-play/) that lists some answers to these exact questions that have been previously cleared with the designer?

General Sabotage
Q. When a Dam is Sabotaged, is the unit on the Dam eliminated?
A. No. Sabotaging a Dam does not mean the Dam is blown up. The Dam terrain hex, when Sabotaged, is not removed and the unit on the Dam is not eliminated.

Q. Are dice rolled each turn, after the sabotaging player’s Command Card is played, regardless of the sector? For example, if you were playing a center section card, would dice still be rolled if the Dam was in one of the flanks?
A. Yes. You roll to Sabotage as long as one of the Dams is occupied by a sabotaging unit.
Schwammenauel Dam
Q. When a Dam is Sabotaged in this scenario, is the unit on the Dam eliminated?
A. No. Sabotaging either Dam does not mean the Dam is blown up. The Sabotaged Dam terrain hex is not removed and the unit on the Dam is not eliminated.

Q. Are dice rolled each turn, after the Axis player Command card is played, regardless of the sector? For example, if you were playing a center section card,would dice still be rolled for Dam Sabotage? A. Yes. You roll to Sabotage as long as one of the Dams is occupied by an Axis unit.

Q. If both Dams are occupied, and two Stars are rolled, does each Dam get one Star token, or does one Dam get both?
A. Each Dam gets one token. If only one Dam is occupied and two Stars are rolled, the 2nd Star rolled has no effect. (Terrain Pack p. 9)

Q. Is it possible for the Axis to Sabotage both Dams?
A. Yes, if the Axis player occupies both Dam hexes and rolls four Stars for each Dam over a number of turns.
This is exactly the document I am quoting in my previous message....
As I said, only the last Q/A talks about "four stars", this number is nowhere to be found in the scenario description, so I find it hard to talk about "carefuly crafted scenario" is this case...
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diamant
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Re: List of scenarios with rules not fully implemented?

Post by diamant »

Tisaac wrote: 15 July 2022, 23:09This is exactly the document I am quoting in my previous message....
As I said, only the last Q/A talks about "four stars", this number is nowhere to be found in the scenario description, so I find it hard to talk about "carefuly crafted scenario" is this case...
The design of a scenario is one thing, the layout of the rule book is another and is not usually entrusted to the same person.
I agree with you that the rules for sabotage of the Schwammenauel Dam are applicable to this only scenario and should be included in the scenario description.
The editor has chosen a reduced format for army packs and the Terrain Pack, and therefore the corresponding booklets are reduced in size. For each scenario, 2 pages opposite contain the map and description. With this format, I guess there wasn’t enough room for the special sabotage rule.
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jeroenh
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Re: List of scenarios with rules not fully implemented?

Post by jeroenh »

Tisaac wrote: 15 July 2022, 23:09 […]

This is exactly the document I am quoting in my previous message....
As I said, only the last Q/A talks about "four stars", this number is nowhere to be found in the scenario description, so I find it hard to talk about "carefuly crafted scenario" is this case...
I think the original rules are actually pretty clear on what needs to happen and where the four stars come from. The scenario even points to page 9 of the Terrain Pack:
Sabotaging a Dam
In the Schwammenauel Dam scenario included in this expansion, Battle Star tokens are used to indicate German sabotage efforts.
The Axis player may attempt to sabotage the Schwammenauel and
Urft dams, when he has units on both or either dam hex. After playing a Command Card and before any units are ordered, he rolls two battle dice. For each star rolled, one Battle Star token is placed on a dam. If two stars are rolled and only one dam is occupied, only one Battle Star is placed on the occupied dam. When a fourth Battle Star token is placed on the dam, it is considered successfully sabotaged: remove the tokens from the dam hex and place four Axis medals onto the German medal track! But beware: If an Allied unit captures the dam hex at any point before the Axis Battle Star token count reaches four, the tokens are removed and the sabotage process must start over.
I completely get your frustration though. Memoir has many many rules and there is not a well organised source for everything :(
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