Agree or Disagree ; Just Pantheon without Ra is peak 7WD.

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thebetterspidey
Posts: 1
Joined: 17 August 2022, 01:02

Agree or Disagree ; Just Pantheon without Ra is peak 7WD.

Post by thebetterspidey »

No secret; Ra is broken :lol: . Every move you make in playing Pantheon as it is revolves around Ra. You want to reveal the Egyptian token. Then you want to put Ra next to you. Even when you don't reveal Ra, you STILL want to do the same, to make your opponent play around Ra. Then it's a battle of who can get the last move on Age 1 - having the first move on Age 2 to invoke Ra OR deny your opponent Ra OR build Divine Theatre to get Ra determines like 80% of your winrate.

... but then, sometimes the stars line up and you see no Egyptian tokens. Not only that - no player has access to the Divine Theater. When that happens, I genuinely feel that the game is at its most fun and engaging :!: . It's essentially the base game, with a cherry on top. It still may not be as balanced as the base game, but it's pretty close - with the upside of playing with the cool god cards and infinitely more decision trees in Age 1 and 2 (the base game can sometimes feel "flowchart"-y, if that makes sense.)

Agora is fun but I find detracts from the spirit of the base game a little too much by introducing a 4th win condition. Thematically and visually I also don't find it to fit in with the rest of the cards.

It's truly a shame that Ra is as powerful as he is right now. If we as a community in BGA can somehow patch our version of the game somehow to rebalance Ra in Pantheon it would greatly improve this amazing game. My proposed change is simple but obvious - make it so Ra can only steal BUILT wonders (how do you even steal something that's not built?). A player could use Ra to steal opposing Piraeus or Lighthouse for the resources, or Sphinx for the VP, which for example would be a powerful 12 point swing. Ra would still be a well above average Pantheon god, just not the bonkers game centraliser he is now.

Right now I and I suspect an overwhelming majority of players just play the base game. If there was an option to just play Pantheon without the possibility of seeing Ra, OR with a rebalanced Ra, it would 100% be my preferred way to play.
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Tsearm
Posts: 2
Joined: 09 April 2020, 15:48

Re: Agree or Disagree ; Just Pantheon without Ra is peak 7WD.

Post by Tsearm »

I desagree ! Strongly ;)
silentProtest
Posts: 170
Joined: 26 March 2022, 20:12

Re: Agree or Disagree ; Just Pantheon without Ra is peak 7WD.

Post by silentProtest »

Tsearm wrote: 28 August 2022, 19:43 I desagree ! Strongly ;)
there really needs to be an upvote or reaction button for posts on bga (like for example on reddit).
fully agree with Tsearm's disagreement ! :lol:
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Le007n
Posts: 64
Joined: 30 March 2020, 22:47

Re: Agree or Disagree ; Just Pantheon without Ra is peak 7WD.

Post by Le007n »

You mean, '7WD - The race for Ra' expansion... :P

The issue with Ra as you say is the two strong effects; take an opponent's wonder (likely a replay wonder), then let you have it (give you an extra go so swinging this by 2)

Nearly all the other wonders / god's have a single effect which keeps them balanced. The exception obviously is Baal but his steal if not very strong generally since there is a larger pool of resources to gain

I would take away the steal aspect although and just allow Ra, the creator the ability to destroy one of his creations.

This could be a 'made' wonder to prevent ongoing benefits, an 'unmade' wonder to prevent the opponent from ever building it (generally denying a replay I would imagine) or even destroying a gained token for which there is no mechanism to counter

This would still be strong but not as strong a current

Let's be honest, it's very unlikely to ever change but it would be nice done Pantheon is a pretty good expansion to improve on some of the base game areas. Maybe it's just a nice house rules to try :)
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Lofski
Posts: 22
Joined: 15 March 2020, 12:02

Re: Agree or Disagree ; Just Pantheon without Ra is peak 7WD.

Post by Lofski »

Agree. The general idea and design behind Pantheon is very good. The possibility to spend a turn without taking a card from the structure is very welcome. Added benefits for revealing cards for the opponent is nice too. If the god powers were balanced well enough, these two changes would greatly alleviate the worst problems of the base game.

However, there is clear evidence in the data analysis thread that Ra is horribly Broken.
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Pistol Star
Posts: 99
Joined: 11 October 2016, 02:41

Re: Agree or Disagree ; Just Pantheon without Ra is peak 7WD.

Post by Pistol Star »

I agree.
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KongKing123
Posts: 577
Joined: 04 April 2020, 19:43

Re: Agree or Disagree ; Just Pantheon without Ra is peak 7WD.

Post by KongKing123 »

Agreed. Ra and by extension the Extortion Conspiracy should never have been in the game in their current form.

Perhaps the effect should merely be to copy the opponent's Wonder, rather than steal it.
silentProtest
Posts: 170
Joined: 26 March 2022, 20:12

Re: Agree or Disagree ; Just Pantheon without Ra is peak 7WD.

Post by silentProtest »

thought I'll also give something more informative then just argeement or disargreement - for anybody who cares.

the difference in opinion is (thus far) between people, :arrow: who play with both expansions and :arrow: people who don't, and maybe are judging it only within Pantheon without Agora, or maybe just do not have any or, at least, not enough experience playing both expansions.
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frankenStain
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Joined: 02 December 2020, 01:18

Re: Agree or Disagree ; Just Pantheon without Ra is peak 7WD.

Post by frankenStain »

Fun fact here: some of the same people complaining about Ra, also complain about First-Player-Advantage and playing with both expansions being bad/not good enough for competitive play.

the irony here: being second player with both expansion gives you best chances to be first in age 2, where ra might come into play, and the better chances to get yellow cards from cards beyond the 1st row, to finance ra and/or the Gate. (which fixes all sorts of "balance issues" and makes the game way more dynamic and complex)
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Pistol Star
Posts: 99
Joined: 11 October 2016, 02:41

Re: Agree or Disagree ; Just Pantheon without Ra is peak 7WD.

Post by Pistol Star »

Anyways...

The highest ranked players disagree so I guess it's clear that higher ranked players will know better than lower ranked players :)
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