Read this before you go on this site as an experienced 'beginner'!

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wentley
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Joined: 17 February 2015, 19:34

Read this before you go on this site as an experienced 'beginner'!

Post by wentley »

I expect some people have discussed this issue before, but one particular game really annoyed me enough that I decided to post. Its the usual thing, I want to play one of my favourite games, and the only real-time option for me is to play against a 'beginner'. Since its a favourite, I don't mind playing it against anyone really, including beginners. But since I'm playing a beginner, I don't necessarily expect a really tough challenge, I may even 'go easy' on them, I'm thinking.

But of course this player is not a beginner at all, as becomes obvious from the aggressive and confident manner in which they play (I'm not talking about table talk obviously, but their strategy). Not expecting this, I've left myself open. And they are clearly at least as good, possibly better at the game than I am. Now with the additional advantage of surprise, they are well ahead in a game (like many) in which starting well is often key.

I switch into full on competition mode, do my best, even make some good plays, but its not enough. I've been blitz-krieged, and, since they are a 'beginner' I lose a ton of elo. Yes, some of you may not care about that, but its a measure of status on this site, losing it has significance, and its not a good feeling. But of course there's also a sense that its unfair, since I've lost a game against a clearly experienced player, not a nube, and I shouldn't be penalised that heavily.

Okay the elo system is what it is, and I'm not necessarily asking for that to be changed. But people could come on the site and play in a manner which is a little bit more respectful of the way elo works. For example, how about starting by joining or setting up (if you can) a game against beginners and apprentices only. Gain a bit of elo, which you probably will after winning, then take on a regular player. If you win again you'll probably be a regular player yourself by now. Problem solved. You are no longer a wolf in sheep's clothing.

It may be that many naively come on the site, not realising the possible consequences of playing games they already know well in the guise of a beginner. I'm thinking though, that quite a few do know that, and don't care, even though it can be very annoying. I wish there was some advice up somewhere for people to think on before they do this, whether naively or otherwise.

I'm sure that I'm going to get some come back to the tune of 'well then don't play against beginners and/or apprentices if you're an experienced player. Its bullying anyway.' Yes, you have a point, but sometimes I might have no one else to play with, and maybe I'd prefer a more relaxing game, or even to teach someone how to play the game better. Unfortunately experiences like the one I mentioned make me less inclined to do this.
RobertBr
Posts: 513
Joined: 08 July 2016, 15:57

Re: Read this before you go on this site as an experienced 'beginner'!

Post by RobertBr »

I cannot imagine you getting much sympathy here. Why should people who have not used a site feel an obligation to mollycoddle you?
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Carolinemgm
Posts: 73
Joined: 07 June 2021, 16:59

Re: Read this before you go on this site as an experienced 'beginner'!

Post by Carolinemgm »

As I first arrived on this website it was because I was looking for a certain game, one I obviously know in real life.
So I guess many so-called beginners are indeed not.

But this doesn´t seem a real issue.
If this bother you, either talk to people before the game to know if they already played the game elsewhere, or just play at your own level whatever the level of the other player is.
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Silene
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Joined: 23 October 2013, 17:50

Re: Read this before you go on this site as an experienced 'beginner'!

Post by Silene »

I don't think anyone does anything wrong with playing a game as good as they are and possibly winning against a high-ranked player. I agree it's unfortunate for you when you meet them and your ELO is precious to you. But it's nobody's fault. You might be better off to go easy on them later in the game and not right from the beginning to avoid what you described. And maybe try to enjoy the challenge they pose to you (isn't it more fun than just facing a real beginner?).

But I do think that elo-calculation on BGA could be improved somewhat in this way:
K-factor should be adapted in both ways!

What is already done is:
* If a player is new, their own K-factor is set high (because their own rank is unreliable and therefore should be adjusted a lot)
What I think should be added is:
* If a player is new, their opponnents K-factor will be reduced for their game (because of the same reason: the opponnents rank is unreliable and therefore result against them should be considered less valuable information)
Hosting Allround-League: https://boardgamearena.com/group?id=7870115 --> a league where you have matches of random games vs. other players in your group - season 6 started in Nov. '23 with 128 participants.
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Meeplelowda
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Joined: 14 March 2020, 10:31

Re: Read this before you go on this site as an experienced 'beginner'!

Post by Meeplelowda »

Silene wrote: 13 September 2022, 12:40 But I do think that elo-calculation on BGA could be improved somewhat in this way:
K-factor should be adapted in both ways!

What is already done is:
* If a player is new, their own K-factor is set high (because their own rank is unreliable and therefore should be adjusted a lot)
What I think should be added is:
* If a player is new, their opponnents K-factor will be reduced for their game (because of the same reason: the opponnents rank is unreliable and therefore result against them should be considered less valuable information)
Or BGA can do what most other gaming systems that use ELO do: treat someone as unrated until they have a certain number of results. Then give them a provisional rating based on their first N performances against rated players. For example:
[(Sum of Opponents' Ratings) + 400 x (W - L)] / N

Or you can start a person at an "average" ELO. In fact, they do this for Arena (it's just hidden until you reach elite), so it's clear that they understand this concept. I could not find any example of an organized game federation/league in which ratings begin at 0.
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Silene
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Joined: 23 October 2013, 17:50

Re: Read this before you go on this site as an experienced 'beginner'!

Post by Silene »

Meeplelowda wrote: 13 September 2022, 16:35
Silene wrote: 13 September 2022, 12:40 But I do think that elo-calculation on BGA could be improved somewhat in this way:
K-factor should be adapted in both ways!

What is already done is:
* If a player is new, their own K-factor is set high (because their own rank is unreliable and therefore should be adjusted a lot)
What I think should be added is:
* If a player is new, their opponnents K-factor will be reduced for their game (because of the same reason: the opponnents rank is unreliable and therefore result against them should be considered less valuable information)
Or BGA can do what most other gaming systems that use ELO do: treat someone as unrated until they have a certain number of results. Then give them a provisional rating based on their first N performances against rated players. For example:
[(Sum of Opponents' Ratings) + 400 x (W - L)] / N

Or you can start a person at an "average" ELO. In fact, they do this for Arena (it's just hidden until you reach elite), so it's clear that they understand this concept. I could not find any example of an organized game federation/league in which ratings begin at 0.
It was like that before elo-overhaul in 2016. it lead to a lot of bad feelings when people went down from their initial (average) points. i think it's better that now you start at 0 and only work your way up and cannot fall below 100. feels much better for most people. But the downside from that is that the people they are facing on the way get hit badly - that's why i suggest the k-factor-adaption for opponnents.
Hosting Allround-League: https://boardgamearena.com/group?id=7870115 --> a league where you have matches of random games vs. other players in your group - season 6 started in Nov. '23 with 128 participants.
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Meeplelowda
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Joined: 14 March 2020, 10:31

Re: Read this before you go on this site as an experienced 'beginner'!

Post by Meeplelowda »

Silene wrote: 13 September 2022, 17:26it lead to a lot of bad feelings when people went down from their initial (average) points.
Well, now, we can't let anyone's feelings get hurt. I could go on about participation trophies, but I digress.

I think your adjusted k-factor for the opponents of a new player makes a lot of sense then.
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Dennis W
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Joined: 21 February 2022, 19:48

Re: Read this before you go on this site as an experienced 'beginner'!

Post by Dennis W »

I see a lot of posts about formulas when this is solved so simply. Perhaps talk to your tablemates? When the game starts up - Intro yourself as experienced but want to play now and ask their level. If they are honest and truly new to the game - go into teach mode. You may even earn yourself a friend and another regular playing partner.

If They are actually experienced at the game, then you know from jump. No hard feelings. Just a casual 'Howdy' convo at game start.
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Meeplelowda
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Re: Read this before you go on this site as an experienced 'beginner'!

Post by Meeplelowda »

Dennis W wrote: 15 September 2022, 16:17 I see a lot of posts about formulas when this is solved so simply.
There are some people who really care about their ELO and to them this doesn't solve the problem of playing someone who really should have ELO 325 but instead has ELO 25. The ELO calculation doesn't factor in friendly conversations, but it does factor in losing to someone whose rating says they are weaker than you when in reality they are much stronger. The OP wasn't just talking about expectations. but specifically also talked about the effect on ELO which your suggestion, though well intentioned, does not address.
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Dennis W
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Joined: 21 February 2022, 19:48

Re: Read this before you go on this site as an experienced 'beginner'!

Post by Dennis W »

Meeplelowda wrote: 15 September 2022, 17:39
Dennis W wrote: 15 September 2022, 16:17 I see a lot of posts about formulas when this is solved so simply.
There are some people who really care about their ELO and to them this doesn't solve the problem of playing someone who really should have ELO 325 but instead has ELO 25. The ELO calculation doesn't factor in friendly conversations, but it does factor in losing to someone whose rating says they are weaker than you when in reality they are much stronger. The OP wasn't just talking about expectations. but specifically also talked about the effect on ELO which your suggestion, though well intentioned, does not address.
I appreciate that. Pretty new to this, so I'm prob not understanding it then.

My suggestion was based on everyone being honest. If you ask and a 'beginner' owns up to being experienced at the game, can you not both agree to quit the game with no ELO loss? With a promise to play once your ELO won't be sacked by a loss?

The other part of OP's post was about feeling sandbagged because they assumed instead of just asking before the game starts. If they know they are actually experienced they won't 'go easy' on them and be ambushed?
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