Reputation loss for 'repeat offending' punishing the offender twice unnecessarily?

[wentley]

I take my reputation on BGA very seriously, and for most of my time on the forum, I've maintained a 100 percent reputation. But very occasionally things go amiss, such as someone will kick me from a game without warning because my timer is in the red, or alternatively I will disconnect because my server is down, or some other issue.

I absolutely understand that when these things unfortunately occur it will effect my reputation. In the first case, I'm partly to blame, because I didn't manage my time well, and in the second, I'm innocent, but I get that people can disconnect as a form of 'rage quitting', and its hard to distinguish when that happens. Often people will wait for a while before kicking someone if they think they've accidentally disconnected, and that is appreciated if you have the time to do it. But sometimes its just too bad, you have to kick the person eventually.

I do feel however that the way the system works, with extra reputation penalties imposed for leaving a game prematurely twice in a short period of time, its possible through simple misfortune to end up with huge losses to your rep, which take substantial periods of time to recover. This has happened to me twice now. In the first case, I tried very hard to recover, to the extent that I was eventually qualified to Alpha test games on BGA. I'm still struggling to eventually get back up to 100 percent again, after the latest hit, which was exactly the combination of being thrown out without a warning, and then an involuntary disconnection a few days later.

I've sometimes met people with quite low reps, who've behaved impeccably, and I'm wondering if they too suffered from bad luck with their connection going down from time to time.

So someone who is basically a decent player will accept the occasional hit, and revert to their normal behaviour, and their rep will naturally rise again. A serial offender, on the other hand, will keep getting penalties, and their rep will be low anyway. And surely its the second person who we want to severely punish for their consistent bad behaviour? Why is it necessary to add another penalty on top of that, which can end up heavily penalising players who occasionally fall foul of a combination of unfortunate events?

[Jest Phulin]

In the first case, I'm partly to blame, because I didn't manage my time well,

In the first case, you are completely responsible, because you didn't manage your time. Saying that you are only partially responsible implies there is some other party that is also responsible, and there isn't.

and in the second, I'm innocent,

In the second, you are partially responsible because it is your responsibility to maintain a connection to BGA servers, and you chose an unreliable service provider.

Your entire post seems to have the air of "I know I'm going against BGA policy, but I don't think I should be punished for it." You can never be kicked "without warning"; your timer going red is the warning. The penalties are to discourage this type of behavior.

If you are getting penalties from not managing your time, the solution is to change your behavior and manage your time better or play games with longer time allowed.

If you are getting penalties from provider issues, the solution again is to change to games with longer time allowances, that will allow you to reconnect if an issue occurs.

It is also important to remember that BGA never* kicks you from a game for time. When you start a game, you are making a commitment to other people to play in a timely manner. The lower karma is just BGA keeping track of your failure to these commitments.


*(OK, ok. BGA will end tournament games when the game runs out of time, and will also abandon games where no moves have been done in a while. But that applies to the entire table, not just one player..)

[GeraldineMerida]

The penalties for a single quitting/being kicked are so small and so easily cancelled by a short burst of active play that many unreliable players mostly maintain very high karma. The only way in which BGA even begins to protect the rest of us is the harsher penalties for repeat offences.

And in case I seem unsympathetic to whatever internet difficulties you've been having, I live in a hurricane zone and sometimes have had no power for days at a time. But I still manage to maintain high karma.

[Meeplelowda]

its possible through simple misfortune to end up with huge losses to your rep, which take substantial periods of time to recover.

It really doesn't take long at all. There is even a thread about quick games to play to recover karma that was started a few days ago.

Also, if your connection is frequently interrupted you may consider turn-based games, which may be played at a pace from 8 moves (or more?) per day down to as slow as 1 move every 2 days.

[wentley]

Okay so the red penalty is my warning, but do you think if I keep an eye all the time on my time, I'm likely to play faster? It would be the opposite. So sometimes you end up in the red unexpectedly. If its not a big problem, and you are obviously trying to keep to the time, and trying to speed up next turn, and no one is getting excited about it, then usually there's not much of an issue.

If someone warns you, then you either speed up in response, or you have no one to blame but yourself if you're kicked. I agree with that. And also if your connection fails, because no one can wait forever if you can't reconnect.

Nevertheless there is a more reasonable, nicer, more tolerant way to play. And that is to warn someone if they are really taking excessive time, and its unfair or annoying. Sometimes even people will say, 'Are you okay?" Which is a hint, but a nicer way of doing it. Because we are not all so competitive, or absolutely wishing to stick exactly to the letter of the rules, that we can't be a little more human about things. So that is why I said about being partly to blame. If you warn someone, they will probably speed up, and both your days will be nicer. If they don't, well you can feel completely justified if you kick them.

As for the connection, I have one of the best for my country, but still its not perfect, and I hardly think you can be blamed for not spending more money on things in those circumstances. Generally its not a problem for me, but I imagine in some countries, it would be much worse. Hence the 'innocent' people with very bad reps, I suspect. Like I said, if you have time, it might be nice to wait a minute or two if you think someone's having connection problems. They might reconnect in that time ... and if not, well you tried and gave them a chance, and its too bad.

I appreciate the point about turn-based games, and maybe this is the best solution for some people with bad connections. Personally though I no longer want to play this way. I find it better to compartmentalise my playing time, so I'm not thinking about it at other times, which used to happen. That's just my thing, but again its taking account that people may be different, and don't always see things the way you do.

[Jellby]

When other players kick you out without asking the second your time goes negative, you can say they are being strict, cold, unempathetic or whatever, but the fact is they're doing nothing wrong and it's totally within their right to do it. You're breaking one of the rules of the game, which is finishing your move within the allotted time, and they have no obligation to accept it. If you don't like those people, you can always red-thumb them. But note that just as you have justifications for being out of time, they may have justifications for expelling you (maybe they've had a streak of 10 abandoned games and they're fed up, or they have to go and cannot wait longer, or their keyboard is broken and cannot ask in chat...).

If you know there's a high chance of not being able to play in time (because your connection is shaky, because you're expecting a phone call, because you have small children to care about, because you're cooking dinner, etc.), just don't join the game. In any case, the occasional penalty for being expelled is something most of us have (I guess), and no real blot on your reputation. If your expulsion rate is high enough that you cannot recover your reputation, maybe you should reconsider your playing habits, perhaps join only training games (where there is no time limit), or games with friends or people you trust.

[Meeplelowda]

Because we are not all so competitive, or absolutely wishing to stick exactly to the letter of the rules, that we can't be a little more human about things.

This is all up to the individual player. There is a player that I've played with and chatted with in a particular game often. Sometimes they time out and because 1) I know they don't habitually do this and 2) I value the relationship over the win, I switch the game to turn-based instead of expelling them. That is how I prefer to handle that situation with that player. In other situations with a player who has demonstrated a disregard for playing in a timely fashion, I may expel immediately. For other player where it is unclear, I wait an extra minute or two beyond the time when I could have expelled them to see if they come back.

There are all personal choices. It is totally within my discretion to kick these players immediately in all situations. I don't get upset if I get expelled because it is my fault and I am disrespecting the time of the other player(s) in the game.

If you feel like you are going to routinely crumble under time pressure and refuse to play turn-based games, then as suggested elsewhere play training games or play games with people you know with no time limit (this can only be done if everyone in the game is on your friends list).

[Tomatochamp]

[/quote] you chose an unreliable service provider.

WOW, that's an "interesting" statement. Until last year, my village in rural England didn't have fibre-optic. And even now it's only fibre to the repeater box, and copper from box to property. Speeds are still touch-and-go.
Until 2021, I was with BT Broadband and it kept dropping four to five times a week, with the whole rigmarole of having to unscrew the splitter box on the wall, plugging the computer directly in with an Ethernet cable, running speed tests (the speed test timed out and they couldn't even ping me...).
Yes, I "chose" BT. Because British Telecom appeared to be the logical, most reputable choice for a provider. Turned out not to be fit for purpose. But did I "choose" them because of their unreliability? No, of course not. I want internet access, not hours wasted every week on arguments with the provider.
But I was locked in - a contract for a business line for two years, which they wouldn't let me get out of without penalties. In the end, a detailed log of all the outages convinced a court that they did not provide the service they were contracted for.
So to say that it's somebody's FAULT for CHOOSING an unreliable service provider is imho something I cannot type here for fear of getting told of.
The reason I found this thread is because last night the WiFi in my hotel dropped out for hours and I got a warning as a result. I've learned my lesson - won't play real-time in a hotel again. But the only reason I accept the ruling that internet connection failures count against one's reputation is because BGA has to legislate somehow - and it's impossible to diagnose what actually happens.
However, to blame somebody and say "it's your fault because you CHOSE an unreliable provider" makes me fume.

[cyphale]

petite question, hier soir il y a eu un gros bug sur le serveur et malgrés la garantie qu'il n'y aurait pas de penalité suite a ce problème je me retrouve avec une baisse sur ma réputation j'aimerais bien comprendre ?