Board Game Arena

Is #5 behavior correct?

I think this case trigger once and get 2 food.

#1.play <B049/Scales>.
#2.play occupation.
#3.<B049/Scales> Trigger and get 2 food.
#4.play <A096/Task Artisan> and minor improvement by abilitiy.
#5.<B049/Scales> Trigger twice and get 4 food.

There is a strange interaction of timing effects going on there.

The short answer is that yes, it is a reasonable interpretation that you should get four food there. It's not intuitive, but it very well may be correct.

Thank you for your reply.

This behavior is not intuitive.

It's not intuitive, but it definitely makes sense once you dig into it.

Task Artisan is an immediate effect because it reads "When you play this card..." This phrase is used often in Agricola and a lot of the time will have "immediately" right afterwards (such as Mini Pasture: "When you play this card, immediately fence...").

So if we're coding this up then both Task Artisan and the improvement played by it would be put onto your board within the same time step.

Scales however is not an immediate effect. It reads "Each time after you place an improvement or occupation..." So Scales is only checked after both cards have been played. Scales tells us to check the board state for each placed card. Both checks will find the board state in equilibrium, so you end up getting 4 food.

If you've ever played MTG, think of it as both the occ and the improvement 'entering the battlefield' at the same time, causing two triggers to go on the stack.

I have two possible interpretations, and in both cases, I think it should only give 2 food.

In my first interpretation, the cards are played sequentially. Task Artisan is played, and the Scales condition is checked. The number of occupations and improvements is different, so Scales does not give any food. Then a minor improvement is played using the Task Artisan effect, and the Scales condition is checked. The number of occupations and improvements is the same, so Scales gives 2 food. The total food given is then 2 food.

In my second interpretation, Task Artisan and the Minor Improvement are played at the same time since the minor improvement must be played to resolve the Task Artisan card. The Scales condition is not checked in between playing the two cards, but instead after playing both of them. This is similar to the comments above. For example, G-Mumz says

G-Mumz wrote: ↑17 November 2022, 06:37 ...both Task Artisan and the improvement played by it would be put onto your board within the same time step.

Scales however is not an immediate effect. It reads "Each time after you place an improvement or occupation..." So Scales is only checked after both cards have been played. Scales tells us to check the board state for each placed card. Both checks will find the board state in equilibrium, so you end up getting 4 food.

However when I read this, I think it means that Scales should only give 2 food. My interpretation would be that you check Scales after you play both cards. The condition is then met, so Scales gives 2 food.

Scales reads
"Each time after you place an improvement or occupation in front of you, if you then have the same number of improvements and occupations in play, you get 2 food."
so I would think that Scales checks after each time you place a card, which is one time in this interpretation, (both cards are played at the same time so there is only one "time after" the cards are played not two "times after"), not once for each card. I do not understand the argument for why you get to check twice just because you played two cards.

The wording is confusing, but this is my best reading of the card text. Also this just happened in a game I played, and my opponent got 4 food which annoyed me, so I thought I would add another comment to this thread.

The publisher directed the developers that once a card is played, its text gets carried out without interruption. So Scales only gets to evaluate its own rewards after Task Artisan and the corresponding minor have been played.

hunwee wrote: ↑04 June 2023, 00:14 I do not understand the argument for why you get to check twice just because you played two cards.

It sounds like you do understand it, you just think the wording is equivalent to "Each time you place card(s) in front of you..." but it's not.

In a recent game I played task artisan as my first occupation after I had already played Scales, expecting to get 2 food. To my surprise I got zero food. I guess this might be the correct execution but still it bothers me a bit that:

1. Scales
2. random occ = 2 food
3. task artisan + minor = 4 (!) food
total = 6 food

while

1. Scales
2. task artisan + minor = 0 food
total = 0 food

I guess I learned how (not) to play task artisan in combination with Scales but it's awfully hard to figure this out by reading the cards. Not trying to complain, just sharing my experience.

Yes, unfortunately this is one of those traps that most people learn the hard way. I do think the way the cards are implemented is correct but it's certainly not intuitive.

It reminds me of other common traps, like playing Reader/Den Builder after Field Doctor/Delivery Nurse and then realising you can't grow into the space you created because your family has already moved into it. Just something you get from experience.

That would have fooled me Alex, I'm currently playing a turn based game where I have a field doctor and a den builder....

Thinking about this it does make sense that this combo should NOT work. Field Doctor is kind of like Lover in that you go into "minus spare rooms" territory.

It might be a good idea if each card with complex issues like this could have an accessible "clarifications" page which could be quickly accessed mid-game. Not all cards obviously but ones like Den Builder/Field Doctor/Lover etc.