Least Favorite Scenarios for Arena

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Wiking44
Posts: 142
Joined: 10 June 2022, 14:07

Least Favorite Scenarios for Arena

Post by Wiking44 »

OK its been suggested that a least favorite scenario list would be easier so here are my picks.

Pegasus Bridge
Sainte-Mer-Eglise
Pointe-du-Hoc
First Assault Wave
Arnhem Bridge
Wake Island
Slopes of Mount Austen
Escape via the Coastal Road
Panzers vs Grants
Flanking Maneuver at Bir Hakem
Sugar Loaf and Half Moon
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MagnusNygaard
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Re: Least Favorite Scenarios for Arena

Post by MagnusNygaard »

These are my least favorite scenarios for Arena.
I'm posting from worst to least-bad.
Sainte-Mer-Eglise (completely random and not even fun)
Pegasus Bridge (2 card starting hand? Come on)
First Assault Wave (Lots of fun, but not good for competitive play)
Arnhem Bridge (also fun, but even less good for competitive play)
Sidi Rhezeg Air Field (let's try bad terrain, empty flanks and no room to maneuver!)
Knightsbridge (let's try NO terrain!)
Panzers vs Grants (let's do terrain that doesn't really serve a purpose and put exposed infantry against the back line!)
1st Armored to the rescue (let's put armor in a no retreat position, give them useless terrain and no units on one flank)
Vassieux (4 medal map, with a potential 2units dead before they get to make a move...)
Pointe-du-Hoc (can become a complete stale mate where both sides just wait for BEL, Barrage or Air Power)
Mont Mouchet (2 medals for killing one unit?... in a 4 medal map...)
Flanking Maneuver at Bir Hakem (let's put all the fun stuff behind barbed wire AND mines - and keep the rest of the map completely open, so we never get to use it...)
Escape via the Coastal Road (let's exit this map ON A ROAD, chaps...)

The keen eyed observer will have noticed that I really don't like a lot of the desert maps, but I will say that Hellfire Pass is one of my all time favorites, so it's not actually the North African rules as such, just the map layouts.

Maps not on my list, but mentioned by Wiking.
Sugar Loaf and Half Moon - This is sometimes extremely unfair for the Japanese, but they're not without options - if they can use the caves and their own artillery to some effect.
Wake Island - actually one of my favorite maps, though it can be extremely tough for both sides. But both sides have options - and it's possible to win as the allies, even if they lose their artillery early on.
Slopes of Mount Austen - while this can be very unfair - there's always ways to attack for both sides.
PaskinsP
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Re: Least Favorite Scenarios for Arena

Post by PaskinsP »

There is no doubt that you guys are abundantly knowledgeable in m44 scenarios.
Specially you, Magnus, with your ongoing Forum campaign, which btw I'm enjoying quite a bit.

But...
It is one thing to point out disliked scenarios, and a whole other beast to pretend they are luck-broken beyond belief.

Specially when considering that memoire precisely "breathes" un-balanceness out of every pore, a point that gets masterfully addressed by playing 2 ways (both players get subjected to the same ordeal)

I will go over your lists as well, but case in point:

Arnhem Bridge: a wacky scenario, very much one-sided, if not the most.
By any statistic this will be a scenario won both times by the allies.
But this does not make it un-competitive. It will be the german player that performs slightly better in the fiasco of attack, who gets the win.
There is nothing wrong with that.
And the ocasional german who pulls off a real win... all the greater!


One more point, on the famous figure tie-break, of which I'm personally a huge fan:
I see you folks responding that "But often will there be a tie, broken by figure count".
And that is precisely the only valid metric I can think of to evaluate the winner: namely, the player who in such a fiasco was able to project the most firepower on the other side of the river.
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Surikata333
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Re: Least Favorite Scenarios for Arena

Post by Surikata333 »

That is the way ;)
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MagnusNygaard
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Re: Least Favorite Scenarios for Arena

Post by MagnusNygaard »

PaskinsP wrote: 26 November 2022, 08:40 There is no doubt that you guys are abundantly knowledgeable in m44 scenarios.
Specially you, Magnus, with your ongoing Forum campaign, which btw I'm enjoying quite a bit.
Thanks a lot - I'll hurry up and finish it soon. :)
PaskinsP wrote: 26 November 2022, 08:40
But...
It is one thing to point out disliked scenarios, and a whole other beast to pretend they are luck-broken beyond belief.

Specially when considering that memoire precisely "breathes" un-balanceness out of every pore, a point that gets masterfully addressed by playing 2 ways (both players get subjected to the same ordeal)

I will go over your lists as well, but case in point:

Arnhem Bridge: a wacky scenario, very much one-sided, if not the most.
By any statistic this will be a scenario won both times by the allies.
But this does not make it un-competitive. It will be the german player that performs slightly better in the fiasco of attack, who gets the win.
There is nothing wrong with that.
And the ocasional german who pulls off a real win... all the greater!
(snip)
As I think I've stated before - I'm mostly concerned that players who have not played the game a lot will feel completely UNABLE to do anything. It's not the losing that's the problem - it's when you don't feel you can do anything AT ALL. Especially as a new player that's really disheartening.

Arnhem and First Wave are sometimes like this. You can't do anything at all, you can't even make mistakes -because both maps are "funnel" scenarios. Take a map like Klin - notoriously unfair - but you have lots of things you can DO, as the Russians - and you can usually buy yourself time if needed, something you can't on Arnhem (because there are 5 points on the "wrong side" of the river for the Allies to take) nor on 1st Wave (because of the artillery positions).

Btw - I think the discussion about what we like and don't like, is often a good way to keep a game like Memoir44 alive. I mean, they still debate Chess, the other wargame I've heard people rave about...
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Wiking44
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Re: Least Favorite Scenarios for Arena

Post by Wiking44 »

BUMP
We could use some input on scenarios that should NOT be included for competitive Arena play..
PaskinsP
Posts: 76
Joined: 13 April 2022, 18:38

Re: Least Favorite Scenarios for Arena

Post by PaskinsP »

MagnusNygaard wrote: 26 November 2022, 13:48
PaskinsP wrote: 26 November 2022, 08:40 There is no doubt that you guys are abundantly knowledgeable in m44 scenarios.
Specially you, Magnus, with your ongoing Forum campaign, which btw I'm enjoying quite a bit.
Thanks a lot - I'll hurry up and finish it soon. :)
PaskinsP wrote: 26 November 2022, 08:40
But...
It is one thing to point out disliked scenarios, and a whole other beast to pretend they are luck-broken beyond belief.

Specially when considering that memoire precisely "breathes" un-balanceness out of every pore, a point that gets masterfully addressed by playing 2 ways (both players get subjected to the same ordeal)

I will go over your lists as well, but case in point:

Arnhem Bridge: a wacky scenario, very much one-sided, if not the most.
By any statistic this will be a scenario won both times by the allies.
But this does not make it un-competitive. It will be the german player that performs slightly better in the fiasco of attack, who gets the win.
There is nothing wrong with that.
And the ocasional german who pulls off a real win... all the greater!
(snip)
As I think I've stated before - I'm mostly concerned that players who have not played the game a lot will feel completely UNABLE to do anything. It's not the losing that's the problem - it's when you don't feel you can do anything AT ALL. Especially as a new player that's really disheartening.

Arnhem and First Wave are sometimes like this. You can't do anything at all, you can't even make mistakes -because both maps are "funnel" scenarios. Take a map like Klin - notoriously unfair - but you have lots of things you can DO, as the Russians - and you can usually buy yourself time if needed, something you can't on Arnhem (because there are 5 points on the "wrong side" of the river for the Allies to take) nor on 1st Wave (because of the artillery positions).

Btw - I think the discussion about what we like and don't like, is often a good way to keep a game like Memoir44 alive. I mean, they still debate Chess, the other wargame I've heard people rave about...
Magnus, with due respect, but you do not address any point made at all.

Arena is the competitive mode “per excellence”… arguing that having harder scenarios in the pool can be “disheartening” to newer players, does sound a bit like missing the point of Arena entirely.

Of course if I were to participate in Arena of Through the Ages for exmple, I would be completely amiss in what the good opening purchases would be, given the high level of the opponents.

My win-rate would pleateau with similarly skilled oponents (namely, very bad players such as myself in TTA :D )
So I would first get my "act toguether" before presenting myself to such a challenge.

From all the scenario arguments pointed out above… I can somewhat understand those regarding player hand-size disparity, such as Pegasus Bridge. Where one player having a good draw in those tiny hands can be considered a lucky winning condition.

But all other… just fall into the “perform better than your opponent” category, when in the same shoes.

As said, m44 is asymetrical to the bone. And that is nothing new at all, as said, it just simply breathes un-balancedeness.

It would be horrible for m44 if the map pool were so tiny that players could just optimize the map openings and strategies, season after season, with few maps just rotating around.
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MagnusNygaard
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Re: Least Favorite Scenarios for Arena

Post by MagnusNygaard »

PaskinsP wrote: 27 November 2022, 20:38 snip

Magnus, with due respect, but you do not address any point made at all.

Arena is the competitive mode “per excellence”… arguing that having harder scenarios in the pool can be “disheartening” to newer players, does sound a bit like missing the point of Arena entirely.

Of course if I were to participate in Arena of Through the Ages for exmple, I would be completely amiss in what the good opening purchases would be, given the high level of the opponents.

My win-rate would pleateau with similarly skilled oponents (namely, very bad players such as myself in TTA :D )
So I would first get my "act toguether" before presenting myself to such a challenge.

From all the scenario arguments pointed out above… I can somewhat understand those regarding player hand-size disparity, such as Pegasus Bridge. Where one player having a good draw in those tiny hands can be considered a lucky winning condition.

But all other… just fall into the “perform better than your opponent” category, when in the same shoes.

As said, m44 is asymetrical to the bone. And that is nothing new at all, as said, it just simply breathes un-balancedeness.

It would be horrible for m44 if the map pool were so tiny that players could just optimize the map openings and strategies, season after season, with few maps just rotating around.
Well, I may be missing the point of ARENA, I'm new here on BGA, so I don't know. I've just met a lot of people who seems to throw themselves into the ARENA after just a few games.

I'm certainly not talking about a small map pool. On the contrary. There are 60+ maps in the DoW own online version (many of very good ones are still not here), 450+ sanctioned official maps made by Richard Borg and JdRommel, 1500+ 3-star maps that are now available to us from the "Scenarios from the front" - we're not likely to run out of good maps any time soon.

I've mentioned elsewhere, that Richard Borg didn't seem to know his own game fully when he made the 2004 box. The proof is that he almost never made another scenario to only 4 medals (I think there's 1 in the old Air Pack expansion) and that several of the rules he used in the scenarios are never used again in any of the 450+ official maps he and the DoW team made later.

I agree that M44 is asymmetrical - but there are fun and less fun scenarios.

I simply think we should remove the un-fun ones and add fun ones.

Whatever happens, thanks for engaging in the discussion :)
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Wiking44
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Re: Least Favorite Scenarios for Arena

Post by Wiking44 »

The developers already said that they are thinking on the same lines and are asking for input from us on scenarios we think should be left out due to a high luck factor since Arena is competitive play if you think they should all be in that is your call

PaskinsP I'm not sure you realize we are only suggesting removing some scenarios from ARENA MODE not regular play...I have not seen you in ARENA and its new to M44 here on BGA
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Fuddly
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Joined: 05 October 2022, 05:19

Re: Least Favorite Scenarios for Arena

Post by Fuddly »

Scenarios where the Air power Card is able to end the game before it begins. Air Power card being played without having a chance to defend against it...first turn, back up against the wall. Too many players give up when hit hard.

Buggie Scenario's.
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