What it is up with the people who get to vote on the arena settings? there is a whole world of new factions sitting there, but no, another season of no fan factions. So disappointing...
Another Arena season, another boring set of factions
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Slartibartfst
- Posts: 22
- Joined: 24 January 2021, 07:47
Re: Another Arena season, another boring set of factions
The top 1% of Terra Mystica players by games count for the past like 30 days or something are gurus and get to vote for arena settings. This is the same for all games on the site.
In this case I actually agree with them that Fan Factions shouldn't be in arena settings yet--as long as they are still getting tweaked and not in their final format, I don't think they should enter arena. Primarily because turn based arena games are a thing, and when updates get pushed out to fan factions, they tend to immediately apply to all games, including ones in progress. That change can be really jarring and not particularly fair. (Honestly I'm surprised fan factions are even allowed in rated games at all at the moment)
I disagree with the gurus heavily on random map and constant landscape seasons though, so alas.
In this case I actually agree with them that Fan Factions shouldn't be in arena settings yet--as long as they are still getting tweaked and not in their final format, I don't think they should enter arena. Primarily because turn based arena games are a thing, and when updates get pushed out to fan factions, they tend to immediately apply to all games, including ones in progress. That change can be really jarring and not particularly fair. (Honestly I'm surprised fan factions are even allowed in rated games at all at the moment)
I disagree with the gurus heavily on random map and constant landscape seasons though, so alas.
Re: Another Arena season, another boring set of factions
I also disagree with adding fan factions, at least until we have a lot more balance data, but I HEAVILY disagree with not even having Fire and Ice factions, that's the entire reason I don't play arena. I don't understand it, they are an official expansion added by the developer and they make the game much more interesting, why do arena players only want to play with the base factions?
Re: Another Arena season, another boring set of factions
A lot of players don't share your enthusiasm for the variable, fire, and ice mechanics?
Personally I also don't like the Fire and Ice factions, since they add and change the game up quite a lot. They're distinct from the regular factions, and now the fan factions, who all follow the same terraforming rules. Variable factions and Fire factions in particular are quite strange in how they expand and play. I'm happy for all those that like them, but I don't think it should be shocking many in the community don't like them.
I will say Terra Mystica is kind of cursed in this regard--there's almost too many setting options on BGA now, so it makes it really hard for anyone to get a game with their preferences. I think arena is always going to have disgruntled folk because of this. There's no setting that will appease everyone. I personally think arena should go back to much more bare bones settings, but ultimately I basically just don't play arena anymore and would encourage more to just go seek out tables with settings they like and ignore Terra Mystica arena mode--I'm increasingly unclear that it is a net benefit to the community or player base for a game with so many table options and skill levels.
Personally I also don't like the Fire and Ice factions, since they add and change the game up quite a lot. They're distinct from the regular factions, and now the fan factions, who all follow the same terraforming rules. Variable factions and Fire factions in particular are quite strange in how they expand and play. I'm happy for all those that like them, but I don't think it should be shocking many in the community don't like them.
I will say Terra Mystica is kind of cursed in this regard--there's almost too many setting options on BGA now, so it makes it really hard for anyone to get a game with their preferences. I think arena is always going to have disgruntled folk because of this. There's no setting that will appease everyone. I personally think arena should go back to much more bare bones settings, but ultimately I basically just don't play arena anymore and would encourage more to just go seek out tables with settings they like and ignore Terra Mystica arena mode--I'm increasingly unclear that it is a net benefit to the community or player base for a game with so many table options and skill levels.
Re: Another Arena season, another boring set of factions
I would like arena to feature a different format each season. If you are looking for something specific, you can always play a simple game. Why not have an arena season of 1v1 TM? I would also like to see a fan faction season rather sooner than later, but I think there should be a ban phase introduced before hand, so players have a tool at hand to combat unbalanced factions.
The great thing about arena for me is that I know the settings without checking them everytime I want to play a game. It also limits the amount of variety making it easier to improve my game. Having the exact same set of rules multiple seasons in a row seems rather boring though
The great thing about arena for me is that I know the settings without checking them everytime I want to play a game. It also limits the amount of variety making it easier to improve my game. Having the exact same set of rules multiple seasons in a row seems rather boring though
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Slartibartfst
- Posts: 22
- Joined: 24 January 2021, 07:47
Re: Another Arena season, another boring set of factions
does the software allow for the possibility of two different seasons for the same game? Have a vanilla one and a super ultra non vanilla one?
Re: Another Arena season, another boring set of factions
I have been a strong advocate against Fan Factions and Fire and Ice Factions in arena for several reasons:
- They (particularly F&I factions) add a significant amount of complexity and change the game in ways that I think goes against the spirit of TM (as Ranior alluded to)
- The base game is easily complex enough to support deep competitive play for tens of thousands of games (as has been done for over a decade on another site that supports TM tournaments)
- I believe some level of stability in the competitive format is healthy for the game. It gives space for players to master that more-limited set of content at a very high skill level (as I think should be desirable in a competitive format), it allows content creators to create content for a consistent set of rules, it gives newer players a more stable place to enter the game from, and it gives players who have taken a break from the game an easier way to re-enter the competitive community
- We have other ways to "shake things up" (map, expansion scoring, landscapes, etc.) from season to season without doing something as dramatic as introducing more than double the available factions
Long story short, I think being an official expansion added by the developer doesn't necessarily qualify content for being the right fit for the game's default "competitive" format on this site. I totally appreciate players who have a strong desire for most of their games to be played with these other factions, but I don't think forcing them on arena is the right avenue.
- They (particularly F&I factions) add a significant amount of complexity and change the game in ways that I think goes against the spirit of TM (as Ranior alluded to)
- The base game is easily complex enough to support deep competitive play for tens of thousands of games (as has been done for over a decade on another site that supports TM tournaments)
- I believe some level of stability in the competitive format is healthy for the game. It gives space for players to master that more-limited set of content at a very high skill level (as I think should be desirable in a competitive format), it allows content creators to create content for a consistent set of rules, it gives newer players a more stable place to enter the game from, and it gives players who have taken a break from the game an easier way to re-enter the competitive community
- We have other ways to "shake things up" (map, expansion scoring, landscapes, etc.) from season to season without doing something as dramatic as introducing more than double the available factions
Long story short, I think being an official expansion added by the developer doesn't necessarily qualify content for being the right fit for the game's default "competitive" format on this site. I totally appreciate players who have a strong desire for most of their games to be played with these other factions, but I don't think forcing them on arena is the right avenue.
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Slartibartfst
- Posts: 22
- Joined: 24 January 2021, 07:47
Re: Another Arena season, another boring set of factions
Guess we will never see change on this. People who take Arena seriously like to stay in their comfort zone I guess, and the community is going to go with leaders opinions like nerdcubes and raniors, so doubt it will ever change. Just seems a waste to me.
Re: Another Arena season, another boring set of factions
I mean what is the point of arena if not to take its format somewhat seriously and attempt to keep it as a healthy and competitive format? What do you view the purpose of arena as, that you feel makes F&I and Fan factions a particularly great fit for that format, as opposed the current settings?
I think I've stepped out of my comfort zone and had high arena placements in seasons that have a variety of formats, and I have played quite a few games with the F&I factions, and have come to those conclusions about why I feel that adding all expansions isn't the best for the arena format, but I'm happy to stop my arguments if the community generally disagrees.
I guess I just haven't felt like I've heard any particularly great arguments from anyone for including the F&I or Fan factions in arena besides essentially "they exist" and "I like them", which isn't particularly compelling to me.
I think I've stepped out of my comfort zone and had high arena placements in seasons that have a variety of formats, and I have played quite a few games with the F&I factions, and have come to those conclusions about why I feel that adding all expansions isn't the best for the arena format, but I'm happy to stop my arguments if the community generally disagrees.
I guess I just haven't felt like I've heard any particularly great arguments from anyone for including the F&I or Fan factions in arena besides essentially "they exist" and "I like them", which isn't particularly compelling to me.
Re: Another Arena season, another boring set of factions
So to attempt to construct an actual argument:
1) Terra Mystica came out in 2012, F&I came out in 2014, so ~10 and ~8 years ago, thus there is no sense in which we can consider F&I "new." At this point it is established canon, released and endorsed by the designers, and unchanged in its current form for over 7 years.
2) Base Terra Mystica, since it has been around for 10 years (and 11 arena seasons on BGG as well as thousands of games on Snellman), is fairly predictable, to the point where factions have been assigned standard point values, because it is possible to statistically show roughly how many points a competitive Terra Mystica player will get in any given game. A table of high-level players can look at the setup and the chosen factions and have a pretty good idea of how the game will progress, with some minor variations.
3) F&I significantly shakes up this predictability, thus allowing the best players extra ability to adapt and improvise, rather than execute a roughly similar gameplan to the previous hundred games.
In response to counter-arguments:
1) I am not suggesting that base TM is not deep. It is, in my opinion, the deepest game ever made, which is why I have played hundreds of games of it. But F&I makes it EVEN DEEPER.
2) I understand the argument that some amount of stability in a tournament scene is a good thing. But once F&I is introduced to arena, that will become the new level of stability. It will take time for a meta to develop, just like it did for base TM, but eventually it will stabilize at a new level, and that new level will be better. Being afraid of shaking things up is just sacrificing the long-term goal of a better game for the short-term goal of stability-as-it-currently-is.
If you just straight-up don't like F&I, that is a personal preference, but I don't think that means that not having it is better for the overall general health and enjoyment of the game. Ultimately any argument is going to come down to your feelings on how arena "should" be. My feelings on arena is that it is important that it change, because that is what leads to dynamic high-level gameplay. People who want it to stay the same and hone the same strategies have had 3 years and 11 seasons to do that (or significantly longer if they played on Snellman). People who want their strategies to adapt have not had a similar chance. A static high-level scene leads to stagnation. Just look at how many more tournaments fired when Fan Factions were introduced on here; they shook up an 11 year old game and breathed new life into it. (I'm not suggesting to add those to arena.)
1) Terra Mystica came out in 2012, F&I came out in 2014, so ~10 and ~8 years ago, thus there is no sense in which we can consider F&I "new." At this point it is established canon, released and endorsed by the designers, and unchanged in its current form for over 7 years.
2) Base Terra Mystica, since it has been around for 10 years (and 11 arena seasons on BGG as well as thousands of games on Snellman), is fairly predictable, to the point where factions have been assigned standard point values, because it is possible to statistically show roughly how many points a competitive Terra Mystica player will get in any given game. A table of high-level players can look at the setup and the chosen factions and have a pretty good idea of how the game will progress, with some minor variations.
3) F&I significantly shakes up this predictability, thus allowing the best players extra ability to adapt and improvise, rather than execute a roughly similar gameplan to the previous hundred games.
In response to counter-arguments:
1) I am not suggesting that base TM is not deep. It is, in my opinion, the deepest game ever made, which is why I have played hundreds of games of it. But F&I makes it EVEN DEEPER.
2) I understand the argument that some amount of stability in a tournament scene is a good thing. But once F&I is introduced to arena, that will become the new level of stability. It will take time for a meta to develop, just like it did for base TM, but eventually it will stabilize at a new level, and that new level will be better. Being afraid of shaking things up is just sacrificing the long-term goal of a better game for the short-term goal of stability-as-it-currently-is.
If you just straight-up don't like F&I, that is a personal preference, but I don't think that means that not having it is better for the overall general health and enjoyment of the game. Ultimately any argument is going to come down to your feelings on how arena "should" be. My feelings on arena is that it is important that it change, because that is what leads to dynamic high-level gameplay. People who want it to stay the same and hone the same strategies have had 3 years and 11 seasons to do that (or significantly longer if they played on Snellman). People who want their strategies to adapt have not had a similar chance. A static high-level scene leads to stagnation. Just look at how many more tournaments fired when Fan Factions were introduced on here; they shook up an 11 year old game and breathed new life into it. (I'm not suggesting to add those to arena.)