Another Arena season, another boring set of factions

[jtiggelm]

1. The game Terra Mystica is more enjoyable, fun, and pleasing with the 14 original factions only. (I find this to be true, so will always vote in favor of it for arena.)
2. The game is more accessible to newer players with only the 14 original factions. (I don't necessarily agree with this, and more to the point I don't care much about it, as I think people should just play what they find fun, but there are people who vote based on this theory.)
3. The game should not include the "fan factions" because they are in an iterative design process and are still subject to change before official publication. (I wouldn't include them under any circumstances ever, so I don't consider this point, but a lot of folks do).

I agree with all of those points.

I would be open to adding fan factions later provided I could get some sense of how to play them before that point. So far, that does not appear to be possible very well in a way I like.

Also, I am not fond of the landscapes, so I am ignoring this arena season.

My overall feeling is that there are too many options now, and that it is hard to find players that want a similar game.

[MaddenMan]

I'm a new player to this game, my problem isn't adding "fan factions" it's when I hit ELO 100 and queued up for an arena game it's been over an hour and nobody playing.

[BaseSig]

Fan factions are going to be an official release from the publisher at some point, but they still very much are in playtesting and not a finalized form. Given they can and have changed suddenly, and that this impact turn based games that are playing with now changed factions, they should remain out of arena until they become finalized.

You are in the minority. Several people who use “original release” argument have also said other things to indicate that they don’t want fan factions in arena even once they’re finalized.

How much play testing is needed? There have been thousands and thousands of games. Is there any timeline?

I would like to see fast simple solutions. 2 separate arenas. Asking them not to make any changes to the ff until after the season is over also seems very easy and reasonable.

The timeline now is wait several seasons for the announcement of finalization. Then wait another season so that swing voters get the chance to vote. Then realize the 3-5% of voters who now accept fan factions had no impact. Then we are back to square one. Doesn’t seem very optimistic for people who want ff.

The fan factions are unbalanced right now, even moreso than the original factions. Just did a league with them and they completely warp the game. Wyrm can 4 town in last round easily due to their SH. Goblins can open SA + TE (3 favor tiles round 1 is nuts), Enlightened can win network and do well on cults even with grey on base map (against players with >450 ELO). And those are just some examples of factions I believe to be stronger than darklings and cultists. Chash Dallas is very bad on the opposite end of the spectrum and needs some work to be competitive. Having factions change in the middle of a competitive format is not good, and if you've been involved in some playtesting on arena before, you'd know any changes in the middle of a turn based game completely breaks the game leaving it in an unfinishable state.

Once they are published and in a finalized form, I'd be for having a season with them. Until then, they need to stay away from Arena.

[ChiefPointThief]

Fan factions are going to be an official release from the publisher at some point, but they still very much are in playtesting and not a finalized form. Given they can and have changed suddenly, and that this impact turn based games that are playing with now changed factions, they should remain out of arena until they become finalized.

You are in the minority. Several people who use “original release” argument have also said other things to indicate that they don’t want fan factions in arena even once they’re finalized.

How much play testing is needed? There have been thousands and thousands of games. Is there any timeline?

I would like to see fast simple solutions. 2 separate arenas. Asking them not to make any changes to the ff until after the season is over also seems very easy and reasonable.

The timeline now is wait several seasons for the announcement of finalization. Then wait another season so that swing voters get the chance to vote. Then realize the 3-5% of voters who now accept fan factions had no impact. Then we are back to square one. Doesn’t seem very optimistic for people who want ff.

The fan factions are unbalanced right now, even moreso than the original factions. Just did a league with them and they completely warp the game. Wyrm can 4 town in last round easily due to their SH. Goblins can open SA + TE (3 favor tiles round 1 is nuts), Enlightened can win network and do well on cults even with grey on base map (against players with >450 ELO). And those are just some examples of factions I believe to be stronger than darklings and cultists. Chash Dallas is very bad on the opposite end of the spectrum and needs some work to be competitive. Having factions change in the middle of a competitive format is not good, and if you've been involved in some playtesting on arena before, you'd know any changes in the middle of a turn based game completely breaks the game leaving it in an unfinishable state.

Once they are published and in a finalized form, I'd be for having a season with them. Until then, they need to stay away from Arena.

If balance is such a main issue for competitive play then why are F&I factions never allowed? This season even F&I scoring was taken away. Both were created to help with balancing issues. (landscapes get voted out of arena as well)

"3 favor tiles round 1 is nuts". Chaos magicians can get 4 favor tiles way easier than goblins can get 3. Also I haven't seen the SA + TE open but assume it is possible if everything goes their way. You need 12 workers and 24 coins to achieve this and even if so does that guarantee victory? The numbers showed that they were losing the vast majority of their games so goblins got a buff for stronghold to cost 2 less coins. I haven't seen numbers after the buff but I would be surprised if they rose to the top off of that one change.

I do agree with you that enlightened are strong but there are several ways to combat them and that goes back to my point of fan factions being good for the game because it adds more counter picks.

[ChiefPointThief]

Enlightened can win network and do well on cults even with grey on base map (against players with >450 ELO). And those are just some examples of factions I believe to be stronger than darklings and cultists.

Cultists also can do well on network and cults. Color neighbors being able to compete for network isn't foreign even amongst base factions and I've managed to out network enlightened with grey. This is my assessment of enlightened. I just played a series of games in which they were featured and they lost all of them. Most of my best games with them have come from receiving massive leech. Once the community collectively starts giving them the yeti treatment it is possible for them to be subpar. Them having the ability to score massive endgame points actually isn't that bad because I've seen several games where their in game scoring was so bad that they needed to rely on dominating endgame scoring just to compete. They must build the stronghold first rd for the best success and this also means they must somehow obtain a priest. As a stronghold first faction they are last to favor tiles. In addition other factions can build towns quicker and get the cult bonus town tiles first. With them in the game that is one less faction that others need to compete with for power actions. etc. etc. etc. My ruling is that they are not broke.

The fan factions are unbalanced right now, even moreso than the original factions. Just did a league with them and they completely warp the game. Wyrm can 4 town in last round easily due to their SH. Goblins can open SA + TE (3 favor tiles round 1 is nuts)

I don't have a lot of experience w/ wym and don't see them that often. I don't know if that is because they are not that good, players aren't comfortable playing them, or a little of both. Like I previously said they were an underachieving faction that only got a boost for lower stronghold cost. If they are building towns late they are getting leftover town tiles. If there are late game town scoring rds then they are just a less efficient witches with that strategy.

As for goblins there are several in game factors that stop the strategy you suggest. Even when pulled off with no hiccups they start off with only 5 power in bowl 2. You probably have to burn power for resources. If you want to get coins using a marker that will delay you from getting to favor tiles first. Also because this requires so many moves you will pass last and may get an unfavorable pass tile. You probably have no power and won't get preferred cult 1 in rd 2 and unless the cult bonus is brown you most likely arent getting a cult bonus rd 1 even with 3 favor tiles. Another statistically proven underachieving faction prior to a stronghold cost buff. They can be good but far from broken in my opinion.

The winners of the last changes are definitely goats and treasurers. Losers chash, dijinni, and achivists (kind of time travelers too). In my opinion the ff factions are even enough for competitive play.

Feel free to tell me how wrong I am. Maybe I will learn something

[Alloran]

Not to mention that even if the factions are truly unbalanced, there is a foolproof solution to unbalanced factions, the auction...

[ChiefPointThief]

Taking statistics from the tournament I did a few months back in which ff and base were required ff won 9 of 16 games. A small sample size but there was no auction. The players ranged from the 300s up to 600s elo so I would say a solid group of players.

[refbot]

Taking statistics from the tournament I did a few months back in which ff and base were required ff won 9 of 16 games. A small sample size but there was no auction. The players ranged from the 300s up to 600s elo so I would say a solid group of players.

Do you have statistics on the distribution of factions in the entire tournament?

I would expect that fan factions represented > 50% of the factions since they're newer and shinier.

[ChiefPointThief]

Taking statistics from the tournament I did a few months back in which ff and base were required ff won 9 of 16 games. A small sample size but there was no auction. The players ranged from the 300s up to 600s elo so I would say a solid group of players.

Do you have statistics on the distribution of factions in the entire tournament?

I would expect that fan factions represented > 50% of the factions since they're newer and shinier.

It was 50/50 in terms of overall number of picks but some games were 3 to 1 either way. Base factions did better on fjords than base map. Giants got a win and they are considered one of the weaker factions. I read the ff topic on bgg and a user claimed base factions (in particular fakirs) outperform newer factions on fjords. I don’t know how true this is.

It will be great when landscapes are compatible with ff.

[ChiefPointThief]

Statistics from the fun factions tournament that just ended.
This was a fast tournament and most of the games didn’t finished. This is based off of games that played to completion and featured both ff and base. I separated the original fire and ice factions from the original 16.

Base won 2
Darklings won against 3 ff
Engineers won against 2 ff 1 bfi

Base fire/ice won 2
Riverwalkers won against 2ff 1 base
Acolytes won against 2ff 1 base

Fan factions won 2
Atlanteans won against 2ff and 1 base
Conspirators won against 2ff 1bfi

Ff accounted for 15 of 24 picks but only won twice
Base 5 of 24 won twice
Base fire/ice 4 of 24 won twice