Could the Crows also be banned?

[Ze Monstah]

Hi.
Am I the only one finding the Crows also overpowered and difficult to be dealt with (like their cousins, the Ravens), when played right from the start?

In my statistics, a well-played crow (got&played from the start, in the grassland, etc.) wins in >90% of the instances (in the Ravenless 4-Strong-Birds-Banned games, that is).

I think slightly better game mechanics would have been to give the other player 1 point when a Raven was activated and 0.5 points when a Crow was activated.
This way, their overpower would be tamped down a bit.

Basically, I think any bird built in the Grassland that gives the user the power to gain ANY food (thus bypassing the forest completely) is OVERPOWERED! So Ravens most of all, but also Crows.
I think overpower-wise: Ravens >> Crows > Killdeer/Franklin's Gull.

I am curious what others might think.

[donkeykong66]

I don't think the Crows are overpowered, and you might be slightly overestimating them. I think there are a variety of birds that are equally strong, if not stronger.

But first, let's consider an opening playing 2 grassland birds, one of which is a crow. You can now activate the lay eggs spot twice, which will give you 6 eggs, 2 activations of the crow and 2 activations of the other bird. This nets you 4 eggs, 2 resources of your choice, and 2 bird activations. Compare this to an action where you open 2 birds in the forest. You can now choose the choose food action once, which will give you 2 resources, and 2 bird activations, in just a single action. So, as long as your second action is worth 4 points (which can easily be achieved by playing a bird with those 2 resources), you're netting roughly as many points as the 4 eggs you'd get in the other case. (Granted, you have slightly less flexibility over which resources to get)

Some other birds that I might actually prefer over the crows would be the following:
- early wetland birds with a tuck and draw action: these birds allow you to see more cards early, while also generating a few passive VPs in the wetlands
- mid-game birds that let you lay a free egg whenever someone else takes a lay eggs action: especially in 3-4vp these can easily pop off and net you 5-10 eggs for free
- (sometimes) early game migratory birds: putting these down as the 4th bird after having 1 in each row gives you the full action efficiency everywhere until you have your engine setup enough to stop migrating

I definitely disagree with your stance that Crows are better than Killdeer. Discarding one egg for 2 cards is just so efficient, and allows you to completely bypass the wetlands. Killdeer let you discard an egg to take the same action after putting 2 cards in the wetlands, crows let you discard an egg for the default forest action.

Side note, I think many successful Wingspan games focus on 2 out of the 3 areas early, but in many cases still need to build at least 1 or 2 birds in the third habitat (often forest or wetlands). The big four let you completely avoid the third habitat (discarding egg for either 2 food or 2 cards is just as good as building 2 birds in that habitat), but I think using a crow as your primary food source is generally a bit too slow to really build your engine quickly and effectively.

[Ze Monstah]

I don't think the Crows are overpowered, and you might be slightly overestimating them. I think there are a variety of birds that are equally strong, if not stronger.

But first, let's consider an opening playing 2 grassland birds, one of which is a crow. You can now activate the lay eggs spot twice, which will give you 6 eggs, 2 activations of the crow and 2 activations of the other bird. This nets you 4 eggs, 2 resources of your choice, and 2 bird activations. Compare this to an action where you open 2 birds in the forest. You can now choose the choose food action once, which will give you 2 resources, and 2 bird activations, in just a single action. So, as long as your second action is worth 4 points (which can easily be achieved by playing a bird with those 2 resources), you're netting roughly as many points as the 4 eggs you'd get in the other case. (Granted, you have slightly less flexibility over which resources to get)

Some other birds that I might actually prefer over the crows would be the following:
- early wetland birds with a tuck and draw action: these birds allow you to see more cards early, while also generating a few passive VPs in the wetlands
- mid-game birds that let you lay a free egg whenever someone else takes a lay eggs action: especially in 3-4vp these can easily pop off and net you 5-10 eggs for free
- (sometimes) early game migratory birds: putting these down as the 4th bird after having 1 in each row gives you the full action efficiency everywhere until you have your engine setup enough to stop migrating

I definitely disagree with your stance that Crows are better than Killdeer. Discarding one egg for 2 cards is just so efficient, and allows you to completely bypass the wetlands. Killdeer let you discard an egg to take the same action after putting 2 cards in the wetlands, crows let you discard an egg for the default forest action.

Side note, I think many successful Wingspan games focus on 2 out of the 3 areas early, but in many cases still need to build at least 1 or 2 birds in the third habitat (often forest or wetlands). The big four let you completely avoid the third habitat (discarding egg for either 2 food or 2 cards is just as good as building 2 birds in that habitat), but I think using a crow as your primary food source is generally a bit too slow to really build your engine quickly and effectively.

Thanks for the feedback.
I may be overestimating them, given your arguments.

For me, the crows are too strong, despite the rather slower approach.
I never have issues when I get a crow from the beginning, and never start with a crow and another grassland bird.
I start with a crow and a forest/wet bird.

Depending on a game's specifics, the migratory ones are GOLD, as well.

[pjt33]

Basically, I think any bird built in the Grassland that gives the user the power to gain ANY food (thus bypassing the forest completely) is OVERPOWERED

I played a fun game the other day where someone else had two hummingbirds in the grasslands. No-one needed to take forest actions after early round 2, and I think I came last with 95 points. So I don't entirely disagree.

I do think that removing the crows is over the top, but it should be noted that I'm equally happy to play with or without the power four.

Some other birds that I might actually prefer over the crows would be the following:
- early wetland birds with a tuck and draw action: these birds allow you to see more cards early, while also generating a few passive VPs in the wetlands

Or "draw 2 and discard 1" - doesn't get the VPs, but it can be massive card advantage.

I definitely disagree with your stance that Crows are better than Killdeer. Discarding one egg for 2 cards is just so efficient, and allows you to completely bypass the wetlands. Killdeer let you discard an egg to take the same action after putting 2 cards in the wetlands, crows let you discard an egg for the default forest action.

It's better than the default forest action because it's not constrained by the dice.

[Lumin_S]

The crows are very good. There are many other birds like them which allow for similarly strong benefits, so if you want to ban crows you'll also have to ban Chipping Sparrow, Spotted Towhee, Indigo Bunting, etc.

[Ze Monstah]

The crows are very good. There are many other birds like them which allow for similarly strong benefits, so if you want to ban crows you'll also have to ban Chipping Sparrow, Spotted Towhee, Indigo Bunting, etc.

As the Donkey pointed out above, which i kind of agree with, the Crows are the slower Ravens.

In my opinion, this relatively slower pace of theirs can actually be lethal.

And if the Crow player manages to build some fast many-egged birds in the Forest and the Wetland (1 bird in each, let's say), there's not much anyone can do, IMO.

I see them overpowered (despite slower), only because except the Strong 4, they are the only ones capable of bypassing a line (the other one is the Wood Duck, i guess, but it's kind of too expensive, usually).
I've seen people build the Wood Duck in the Forest, but IMO, the strategy is a bit unorthodox, and the Duck, too expensive (it's really fashionable, though ).

The Chipping Sp. (Starting with that in the Forest is a bliss), the Spotted Towhee, the ones that give you 1 free worm, the Cardinal and most of the migratory bunch... I adore them!
But unlike the Crows, they don't give you bypassing powers.

The only times i see the Crows lose:
•The other player builds 2 fast Forest birds and 1 fast Wet bird;
• The other player also builds a fast pink free-egg-laying bird (a magpie or something), in the Grassland or something.
These 2 above dots combined are very strong against any crow, but... Going for them requires a really big dose of luck, bigger than the one the Crow-foe needs.

I understand that I have a personal Crow-"hatred", it's ok, thanks for the replies.

I wish I was Paramesis, so I could ban 6 birds, though

[donkeykong66]

Out of curiousity, what kind of scores are you seeing from people with the Crows? Unless you consistently see 100+ scores I'm personally not worries, as I have seen many other gameplans (even without the big 4) that get high 90s into low 100s.

I remember one of my recent games I started with a draw 2 discard 1 and a tuck 1 draw 1 bird in the wetlands, allowing many early card draws to find good synergies. I ended up with some free birds in the forest, one of which was a vulture giving me some resources throughout the game. I ended up taking the forest action three times (once for 2 food, twice for 3 food) and towards the end I was primarily playing high point birds and/or executing high VP egg-laying actions. (I also had a midgame "lay an egg" bird when someone takes the grasslands action giving me quite a couple free eggs)

I think the key of a good wingspan game is to have highly efficient actions and good synergy. Crows (getting food while laying eggs) is one such way, but there are a variety of others, like tuck and draw (find more synergy while scoring points), passive pink powers, cheap birds, play second bird in habitat to speed up action efficiency, high VP cards that also let you draw bonus cards, .....

[Ze Monstah]

Out of curiousity, what kind of scores are you seeing from people with the Crows? Unless you consistently see 100+ scores I'm personally not worries, as I have seen many other gameplans (even without the big 4) that get high 90s into low 100s.

I remember one of my recent games I started with a draw 2 discard 1 and a tuck 1 draw 1 bird in the wetlands, allowing many early card draws to find good synergies. I ended up with some free birds in the forest, one of which was a vulture giving me some resources throughout the game. I ended up taking the forest action three times (once for 2 food, twice for 3 food) and towards the end I was primarily playing high point birds and/or executing high VP egg-laying actions. (I also had a midgame "lay an egg" bird when someone takes the grasslands action giving me quite a couple free eggs)

I think the key of a good wingspan game is to have highly efficient actions and good synergy. Crows (getting food while laying eggs) is one such way, but there are a variety of others, like tuck and draw (find more synergy while scoring points), passive pink powers, cheap birds, play second bird in habitat to speed up action efficiency, high VP cards that also let you draw bonus cards, .....

Honestly, I haven't actually sensed there are frequent >100 VP victories with the crows.
It's more like a "guaranteed > 85 VP" feeling. But the feeling is quite persistent; and more persistent than with any of the other strategies I use.
I understand your point of view, but IMO the draw and tuck strategy is a tad overrated (it takes too much time, IMO, but it's nice to have a tucking bird and then a draw-2-discard-1 bird - the Ruddy Duck or whatever) in the Wetland; I understand it gives you a luck-expanding power and more complexity.
I think it is only because I don't like abusing the Wetland too much, I'm more of a "draw some decent birds and go for Forest and most importantly Grassland" kind of player.
But that doesn't mean I can't adjust to a specific game.

[Ze Monstah]

I started with a draw 2 discard 1 and a tuck 1 draw 1 bird in the wetlands, allowing many early card draws to find good synergies

Also, I think I am more of a "1 tuck&lay" "1 tuck&draw" kind of guy, rather than "1 tuck&draw" "draw 2 disc. 1" kind of.
Even if in the latter, you remain with 2 birds and 1 VP, I prefer remaining with only 1 bird for 3 VP.

If all 3 are in the wetland, and very cheap, that would be ideal.

[donkeykong66]

I actually agree that a wetland focused strategy is usually somewhat weaker. For that reason, I actually prefer the tuck and draw over tuck and lay eggs, because you end up with more cards. This means you can take the wetland action less often and focus on playing birds & laying eggs more. I actually like a tuck-and-draw bird in the wetlands early for the first couple of draws (to find the right synergy) and then a mid-game tuck-and-draw bird in the grasslands - it allows you to take the preferred action (lay eggs) and still cycle through your cards a bit to find some nice cards.

There are quite a few birds that let you get food through some other means (crows, vultures, some others), but it's much harder to draw cards through bird powers (like net end up with more cards than you started with, so not tuck and draw). For that reason, I actually like to boost my wetlands action early, so I can draw the cards I need more effectively, and limit the number of times I have to take that action. And if I can combine that with a tuck and draw to both see more cards AND get a couple VPs I really like that.