Board Game Arena

i am sorry but Gizmos (and games like it that are designed for 2-4 players should be played with 3 minimum in arena mode. i get Crib and Yahtzee being 2 player for arena, but Gizmos and the like (CuBirds, etc) should be 3 player in arena mode (the games are simply more complex and fun)

Well that's my 2 cents on the matter. apologies for grammar and I'll see every one in standard mode.

Absolutely agree that all of these 2-4 player games switching to just 2 player (Castles of Burgundy, Splendor, etc) including Gizmos, is very boring and rarely seem to switch back to higher counts. I like the competition of Arena but making everything 2 player is ruining the experience.

Heavily disagree. Counter-play becomes way bigger of a factor in 2-player. Taking a Gizmo or energy solely because your opponent wants it can be a good play in a 2-player game but would cause the 3rd/4th player(s) to gain an advantage otherwise. The game is less random/more predictable which means each decision you make matters more on average. That's what a competitive format should strive for imo.

This is where it is though, if you can't "counter play" an opponent in 3-4 i guess you have to think of better strategies and more efficient maneuvers. if a game is designed for a particular experience in mind then that is the way the competitive should be played. you wouldn't play competitive Spades, or hearts with fewer than 4 players, as that is the designed number. 2 player just devolves into who can consistently get the luck, either by being able to counter, or draw what is desired. in 3 player you not only have to watch and counter 2 people you also need to account for the increased speed of turn over and the # of gizmos available to be built is unchanged.

Embe13 wrote: ↑12 April 2023, 06:23 if you can't "counter play" an opponent in 3-4 i guess you have to think of better strategies and more efficient maneuvers.

Counter-play is literally strategy. I'd rather not the strategy of a game rely on playing solitaire.

Embe13 wrote: ↑12 April 2023, 06:23 if a game is designed for a particular experience in mind then that is the way the competitive should be played. you wouldn't play competitive Spades, or hearts with fewer than 4 players, as that is the designed number.

Unlike Hearts and Spades Gizmos was designed for a variable amount of players. Specifically 2-4. Are you referring to the BGG "recommended player count" which has nothing to do with competitive play?

Embe13 wrote: ↑12 April 2023, 06:23 2 player just devolves into who can consistently get the luck, either by being able to counter, or draw what is desired. in 3 player you not only have to watch and counter 2 people you also need to account for the increased speed of turn over and the # of gizmos available to be built is unchanged.

I think you'll find that it's actually quite the opposite. 3-player games feel a lot more like solitaire where you're just trying to get lucky and build the best possible engine for yourself while not caring about what opponents are doing. 2-player has more interaction/counter-play. Increased turnover is just another way of saying "more luck". You can't predict extra turnover. You can predict the cards that are currently face up that are now more likely to make it back to you with only 1 player before your next turn.

I agree with Fletcheese, and it's why I love the 2 player variant. When a pick-if-build shows up in tier 2 at the start of the game, it creates really fun dynamic/dance to prevent the other player from putting it out immediately.

so i am at 415 games played of gizmos now, and i have simply found 2 player 1st player wins 65% and that right there is less random and less of a challenge that 3 or 4 player. 2 player feels even more like solitaire as there is no 3rd person to throw a wrench into things, and with the limited nature of the number of different gizmos and energy available, a lot more luck is there to be able to truly block your opponent. there is almost always an available plan b that is 90% good as plan a.

The simple answer is i hope it goes back to 3 player for the next season, as long as it rotates i can handle it. after all are we not all here to have fun?


and i will freely admit my hypocrisy on this stuff cause i would rather they add 3 and 4p cribbage as individual games so we can have arena mode for all 3(even 4 version cause 4player can be played as team or all 4 one).

I find that quite funny when you have played a grand total of two games at 2 players (out of 400+ games). Both of them you were first pick, one you lost and one you won.

#365902137 winner 2nd pick
#340164274 winner 1st pick

There's a reason the people stuck at the top with 600+ ELO at Gizmos only play at 2 players. The game is way less luck based because you can build your engine and block your opponent building what they can buy on their turn. You don't like 2p Gizmos, well, that's fine. Don't play Arena. If you play enough, you might even be a Guru and make the proposition for Arena to increase the player count to 3 but highly doubt anyone will vote for that.

i have simply found 2 player 1st player wins 65% and that right there is less random and less of a challenge that 3 or 4 player. 2 player feels even more like solitaire as there is no 3rd person to throw a wrench into things, and with the limited nature of the number of different gizmos and energy available, a lot more luck is there to be able to truly block your opponent. there is almost always an available plan b that is 90% good as plan a.

Strong agree. I'm not great at Gizmos, but 2-p is just terrible. Whoever goes first wins most of the time; if they go first and get a lucky energy draw, you may as well concede right then... except you can't until 50%. Painful.

I am not going to argue on this issue in details, because more games are needed to be played to understand how this game in a competitive setting works. If want fun, why not play the standard mode? If want competitions, the luck factor is only more magnified in a three-player setting. There are reasons why some of the competitive players in this chat support the idea of a two-player arena.