Quitting to prevent partner from losing elo.

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otiluke711
Posts: 38
Joined: 10 June 2021, 04:13

Re: Quitting to prevent partner from losing elo.

Post by otiluke711 »

Facts:

zeezee88 was at 499 ELO.

He’s played against Tichu players who cheat and lost as a result.

Proof:

https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewto ... 94#p139894

https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=326140838

He’s at 500+ ELO if we give him back the points he lost as a result of other players cheating against him.
santhosh163
Posts: 6
Joined: 03 July 2021, 18:26

Re: Quitting to prevent partner from losing elo.

Post by santhosh163 »

otiluke711 wrote: 03 May 2023, 11:24 Facts:

zeezee88 was at 499 ELO.

He’s played against Tichu players who cheat and lost as a result.

Proof:

https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewto ... 94#p139894

https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=326140838

He’s at 500+ ELO if we give him back the points he lost as a result of other players cheating against him.
I am sure we all feel gutted and annoyed when this happens. The same feeling would end up happening to a person who was on the verge of winning and had a game quit against them.

So to me the question is not whether any player deserves a certain elo point or not. The debate is about quitting / Cheating in tichu. I am against both, and continue to stop playing / red thumbing players when faced.

To this extent I highly appreciate the incredible amount of effort put by neanderthalman in highlighting cheaters. And personally i don't mind a list of quitters added similarly as public service info. I do not have the motivation/ interest in the game as earlier for me to do that.

And while I am not pro / against any person, my comments are only on actions. So if zortea has abandoned games intentionally/repeatedly as pointed in this thread - they would also be someone i would probably want to avoid playing. But that argument certainly can't be a defense against the current question. Two wrongs do not.. you all know the cliched statement!
santhosh163
Posts: 6
Joined: 03 July 2021, 18:26

Re: Quitting to prevent partner from losing elo.

Post by santhosh163 »

And yes - it is unfortunate that the top players are under a higher level of scrutiny. But that happens in every area. In a way they are the flag bearers of the community and so their actions really make a difference in inspiring / shaping the standards, play style of the community.
C_yyds
Posts: 2
Joined: 03 May 2023, 18:08

Re: Quitting to prevent partner from losing elo.

Post by C_yyds »

Quitting a game never benefits the quitter; therefore, this can not be considered cheating. Cheating is defined as: acting unfairly to gain an advantage.

However, there is no advantage gained by the quitter, cobra_ss, here. The quitter will lose more ELO points than if they had lost the game regularly and will also lose a certain amount of karma points.

One may argue that it is unfair since cobra_ss’s partner zeezee88 benefits from her quitting since he does not lose any ELO; cobra_ss clearly states that she made this decision entirely on her own due to the pressure and stress she felt during the game.

I am sure we all have experienced similar emotions of stress, anger or frustration in Tichu or other games. Furthermore, I believe cobra_ss, especially because she has only quit twice out of 1200 games, which is not a regular occurrence.
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Qualitaetsgarant
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 June 2018, 22:51

Re: Quitting to prevent partner from losing elo.

Post by Qualitaetsgarant »

How about posting with your main account? ;)
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Yalsen
Posts: 5
Joined: 04 February 2022, 15:40

Re: Quitting to prevent partner from losing elo.

Post by Yalsen »

Cobra took full responsibility for leaving the game. Probably she made a really individual decision, and it seems that she realizes in retrospect that it was a bad decision. I do not claim that this scenario was discussed in advance. But if this had already happened, zeezee88 could have decided to leave his next game on purpose, he could have even discussed this with the game participants in advance, in order to renounce the unethically acquired advantage. Or he could have used his other account to try to reach 500 points. If I were in his place, I would certainly have done this, I would not have accepted the unsolicited help, because with that he also became ’guilty’. Instead, he removed from his friends those who had ethical doubts about achieving the 500 result, 'rewarded' them with a red thumb, removed their unwanted comments several times. And as I mentioned earlier, cobra reacted to my first doubts expressed in the private chat by suspending further play with me. For these reasons and mainly because of censorship, it was necessary to make the case public in the form of a forum post, so that everyone can have their say, there was no other option.

@Lenko, discussing accounts is really not part of this topic, many people have multiple accounts. What do you think about the fact that instead of apologizing, the 'guilty' sanction others?

It is welcome that the apology has already been made at least on the part of cobra.
zeezee88
Posts: 1
Joined: 17 August 2021, 03:34

Re: Quitting to prevent partner from losing elo.

Post by zeezee88 »

Yalsen wrote: 03 May 2023, 22:41 Cobra took full responsibility for leaving the game. Probably she made a really individual decision, and it seems that she realizes in retrospect that it was a bad decision. I do not claim that this scenario was discussed in advance. But if this had already happened, zeezee88 could have decided to leave his next game on purpose, he could have even discussed this with the game participants in advance, in order to renounce the unethically acquired advantage. Or he could have used his other account to try to reach 500 points. If I were in his place, I would certainly have done this, I would not have accepted the unsolicited help, because with that he also became ’guilty’. Instead, he removed from his friends those who had ethical doubts about achieving the 500 result, 'rewarded' them with a red thumb, removed their unwanted comments several times. And as I mentioned earlier, cobra reacted to my first doubts expressed in the private chat by suspending further play with me. For these reasons and mainly because of censorship, it was necessary to make the case public in the form of a forum post, so that everyone can have their say, there was no other option.

@Lenko, discussing accounts is really not part of this topic, many people have multiple accounts. What do you think about the fact that instead of apologizing, the 'guilty' sanction others?

It is welcome that the apology has already been made at least on the part of cobra.
I never intended to dignify this nonsensical forum topic with a reply but since you made a baseless and false accusation which directly impugned on my integrity, you leave me with no choice but to step forth to say my piece.

I have never intentionally quit a losing game, nor have I ever asked my partner to quit a losing game to save some meaningless ELO points. During that fateful game when my partner told me she was feeling stressed, overwhelmed and wanted to quit, I pleaded with her not to. I told her we will lose together and come back together.

Sorry to disappoint you if you are expecting an apology from me as I am not in the habit of apologizing for something that I am not, in your own word ‘guilty’ of. The fact that you qualified the word guilty with inverted commas, already shows that you are making a baseless defamatory statement about me.

Regarding your ludicrous suggestion that I should ‘renounce the unethically acquired advantage’ and quit the next game on purpose, for the avoidance of doubt, I did not get any additional ELO points. Second and most importantly, the basis of your suggestion that it was an unethically acquired advantage is untenable as I did not do anything unethical in relation to my partner quitting the game.

Yalsen, you call yourself a friend to me, but you failed to check in with me and perform any due diligence before you made that derogatory post about Cobra and me on my wall. This is clearly not what friends do to one another and hence with a heavy heart, I removed you as my friend.

Regarding your response to Lenko, you are missing the point. The problem does not lie with having multiple accounts, the unconscionable thing is to use multiple accounts to harass and cyberbully, which is what Z0rtea/ deejinlondon/ Ranier/ FagAshLil/ ACSteele1835 is doing. Please don’t trivalise the very real issue of cyberbulling as it is a crime in many countries.

To the wider Tichu community who may read this, please don’t waste your time on this farce anymore as time is a scarce commodity. Please continue to enjoy the game and continue to hone our Tichu skills.
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Qualitaetsgarant
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 June 2018, 22:51

Re: Quitting to prevent partner from losing elo.

Post by Qualitaetsgarant »

zeezee88 wrote: 04 May 2023, 04:45 I have never intentionally quit a losing game, nor have I ever asked my partner to quit a losing game to save some meaningless ELO points.
If ELO is so meaningless, then why create several accounts for strangers and for high ELO partners?
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cobra_ss
Posts: 7
Joined: 06 August 2022, 05:45

Re: Quitting to prevent partner from losing elo.

Post by cobra_ss »

Yalsen wrote: 03 May 2023, 22:41 But if this had already happened, zeezee88 could have decided to leave his next game on purpose, he could have even discussed this with the game participants in advance, in order to renounce the unethically acquired advantage. Or he could have used his other account to try to reach 500 points. If I were in his place, I would certainly have done this, I would not have accepted the unsolicited help, because with that he also became ’guilty’.
It is evident that zeezee88 is one of the best players on BGA Tichu and has reached his current position without a question of doubt. He has reached ELO 498 and 499 multiple times, and without all the quitters and cheaters, he would have reached 500 a long ago.

I find Yalsen's comment beyond absurd. I am puzzled at why Zeezee88 should quit a game because of my decision. As I have stated in my previous statement, he had zero impact on my judgment; it was purely a coincidence that I experienced the mental stress that caused me to quit the game. That being the case, why should he be held responsible for my action?

Furthermore, who will be responsible for the extra points deducted and the reputation loss he does not deserve if he did quit the next game? Please let me take full responsibility for MY action, and please do not shift MY personal decision onto someone else.

Please let me and everyone have the time to reflect, heal and move on from this situation.

Thank you
C_yyds
Posts: 2
Joined: 03 May 2023, 18:08

Re: Quitting to prevent partner from losing elo.

Post by C_yyds »

Yalsen wrote: 03 May 2023, 22:41
@Lenko, discussing accounts is really not part of this topic, many people have multiple accounts. What do you think about the fact that instead of apologizing, the 'guilty' sanction others?
You have clearly misunderstood Lenko's comment because the problem is not simply about having multiple accounts. This player (Z0rtea/ deejinlondon/ Ranier/ FagAshLil/ ACSteele1835) uses his numerous accounts as an advantage to post derogatory comments on another player's wall, which is equivalent to Player A creating multiple accounts to message Player B even after Player B has blocked Player A. There is a Red Thumb for a reason.

This is harassment and cyberbullying. Please reread the comment before defending this type of abhorrent and threatening behaviour.
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