Quitting to prevent partner from losing elo.

[Yalsen]

@zeezee88, when the game was abandoned, the result was 940:260 in favor of the opponent. You didn't scored any ELO points, but you probably would have lost more than 20 ELOs if the game would have ended. So the statement that you did not gain an unethically advantage because of what cobra did, is a simple misleading. You really didn't do anything directly for this advantage, but you accepted it! And that is completely unrelated to why cobra did what she did.
Anyway, since the reaching 500 points, you haven't played tichu with your main account once, you only use your other account. (I wonder why?) Perhaps you should have done this account change immediately after the controversial game and then this forum topic would not have been created.

@C_yyds, you only have two players on your friend list: cobra and zeezee. I think your opinion is enough biased.

[Lenko]

I don't understand why this even needs to be a forum topic. Clearly, it is not a public discussion, and you @Z0rtea, are using it to your own accord simply because you are unable to post defamatory comments on zeezee88's publication.

I have no idea why you guys love quoting me, but I guess I shall quote myself too.

I shall begin by reiterating myself. This is clearly not a public discussion that is meant to better our Tichu community; instead it is a post intended to publicly harrass zeezee88 and cobra_ss (collectively Zebra).

We (the entire Tichu community as a whole) acknowledge that quitting is never a good thing. It brings about a very unpleasant experience for everyone else playing, especially to the supposed winning team. However, should one choose to abandon for whatever reason they may have, it is entirely their decision. If you are unhappy about this, just red-rhumb the quitter and move on. Try raising a complaint to BGA about this, the response you will get is something along the lines of ELO score reduction and karmic retribution - I know, I've tried to report a quitter on more than one occassion.

We also acknowledge that cobra_ss has come to terms with her decision and she admitted that it was a wrong move to make. She has already publicly apologised, and also talked to some players regarding this matter via private message. In the first place, there was no need for her to publicly apologise for her action. Her quitting does not affect anybody else here aside from zeezee88, thursdayevening and doogi. She has already apologised to the opponents for her part, and in my opinion, this is more than sufficient. I strongly believe that it was also largely due to frustration that the deck was so heavily against Zebra, which led to cobra_ss' decision to quit the game. Come on guys, opponents had Dr Ph A for most rounds AND had a total of 5 bombs to counter Zebra's GT calls that would have otherwise been successful. Have a little emphathy. It has also been pointed out by C_yyds that cobra_ss has only quit 2 out of 1,200+ games. @santhosh163, to me, this is not a regular occurence and she should not be boycotted; but I leave it up to you to decide. Also, don't you think that it is unfair for you to pass judgement onto zeezee88 for cobra_ss' action? He did not play any part in her quitting, yet you still chose to unfriend him as though he was part of that decision-making process.

@Yalsen, of all people, you are really such a bad friend. You have played with cobra_ss so many times and she is one of your staple partners in Tichu, yet when this situation arose, you perch yourself up on a high moral ground and latch on to "ethics", asking everyone who is against you to unfriend you if they disagree with your stance. You proceeded to state that zeezee88 should have quit his very next game to neutralise this "unethically acquired advantage" that he gained from cobra_ss quitting. Isn't it very hypocritical of you to say so when in your previous game (Yalsen's team score on the left):
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=307791639 (810-990), your partner (JustHere4Tichu, which is also another of deejinlondon's accounts) failed a GT call and quit.
I do not see you quitting your very next game either (https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=308455647). Did you lose your next game on purpose, thereby inadvertantly dragging down Simu rennt? Why is this an issue for you right now when zeezee_88 is at 499 ELO, but it wasn't an issue for you because you were at 430 ELO? At that point you were also one of the Top 10 players that should be "held accountable by your actions", as you intend Zebra to. Or is it because you have fallen down to 355 ELO that you are "allowed" to say such nasty things? Do your own ethics not apply to yourself? Why is there a double standard going on here? Get off your moral high horse.

If anything, I would actually like to highlight deejinlondon's horrid attitude of repeatedly quitting of games, especially when he is losing, rather than cobra_ss' quitting of 2 out of 1,200+ games. To those of you who have unfriended Zebra stating that you do not agree with cobra_ss' action, I think it's time for you guys to rethink who you should be unfriending instead.

At the end of the day, we are all here to play Tichu, a game that we are all so clearly addicted to. Let's shift the focus back to the game, not create a soap opera out of it. I believe that this topic should not be continued any further.

[Qualitaetsgarant]

At the end of the day, we are all here to play Tichu, a game that we are all so clearly addicted to. Let's shift the focus back to the game, not create a soap opera out of it. I believe that this topic should not be continued any further.

Fully agree.

One last side note to avoid misunderstandings: BGA deletes the record of abandoned games after two months, so the numbers of abandoned games listed in our profile might be misleading.

[cobra_ss]

I sincerely appreciate all comments made by Lenko, C_yyds and thursdayevening; thank you all for using your valuable time to share your opinions and to stick up for me publicly.

Everyone involved has had their chance to speak on their part, and it is time for us to use our time forward to reflect, heal and move on from this situation.

If Yalsen or Zortea have more to say about this to me or wish to talk for closure, I am open to having private conversations but will no longer respond or react to comments made on this public forum forward.

[Yalsen]

@Lenko, my posting of the comment you refer to was preceded by cobra suspending further playing with me because in private chat I expressed my doubts about her decision. The sequence is important.

The game you mentioned happened on October 12, 2022. I've played hundreds of tichu games since then. How far back in time do you want to go to find a game that you can assume is similar to the game currently being discussed? That was not similar. My ethical standards are the same for myself.

I would also like to stop posting, but I will respond to all baseless attacks/accusations against me.

[otiluke711]

I am sure we all feel gutted and annoyed when this happens. The same feeling would end up happening to a person who was on the verge of winning and had a game quit against them.

So to me the question is not whether any player deserves a certain elo point or not. The debate is about quitting / Cheating in tichu. I am against both, and continue to stop playing / red thumbing players when faced.

It is an absolute fact that if people never cheated against zeezee88 + Lenko or quit when zeezee88 & Lenko were about to win…then zeezee88 would have reached 500+ ELO already…

….and then it is absolute fact that this thread and/or discussion would never have occurred.

Thus, let’s just congratulate zeezee88 for reaching 500+ ELO, realizing that he’s already reached that milestone awhile ago once we delete all the games where opponents

A) quitted on him when he was about to win

B) cheated against him when he would otherwise have won

Next, give him all the ELO points that he lost as a result of the above 2 instances when he was at 499 ELO. Boom….He’s at 500+ ELO.

Well done zeezee88!

[Qualitaetsgarant]

I am sure we all feel gutted and annoyed when this happens. The same feeling would end up happening to a person who was on the verge of winning and had a game quit against them.

So to me the question is not whether any player deserves a certain elo point or not. The debate is about quitting / Cheating in tichu. I am against both, and continue to stop playing / red thumbing players when faced.

It is an absolute fact that if people never cheated against zeezee88 + Lenko or quit when zeezee88 & Lenko were about to win…then zeezee88 would have reached 500+ ELO already…

….and then it is absolute fact that this thread and/or discussion would never have occurred.

Thus, let’s just congratulate zeezee88 for reaching 500+ ELO, realizing that he’s already reached that milestone awhile ago once we delete all the games where opponents

A) quitted on him when he was about to win

B) cheated against him when he would otherwise have won

Next, give him all the ELO points that he lost as a result of the above 2 instances when he was at 499 ELO. Boom….He’s at 500+ ELO.

Well done zeezee88!

So when the topic was already done you bring up another take that is beyond absurd...

[otiluke711]

Not absurd at all and you don’t even back up your statement with definitive proof or logic…just saying something is ‘beyond absurd’ does not make it absurd…I mention absolute facts and the statements are absolutely true as you will see once you watch replays.

To quote someone else: Zeezee88 “has reached ELO 498 and 499 multiple times, and without all the quitters and cheaters, he would have reached 500 a long ago.”

Hopefully, I don’t have to start posting each and every game where zeezee88 lost as a result of opponents cheating or opponents quitting on him when he was about to win to prove my point.

Zeezee88 is a 500+ ELO type of player.

[Yalsen]

@otiluke711, Do you have reliable statistics on how many players in the bga got close to 500 points during the two-year history of the tichu game and to what extent they were hindered in achieving it by cheating and leaving the game? This is not a relevant argument that legalizes unethically gained advantage.
I don't envy what zeezee88 achieved, but the way in which he finally managed it, overshadows his success. The taste of the indisputable result would have been sweeter ...

[otiluke711]

“@otiluke711, Do you have reliable statistics on how many players in the bga got close to 500 points during the two-year history of the tichu game….?”

Off the top of my head, these include zeezee88, Lenko, Qualitaetsgarant, cobra_ss, and myself.

“…and to what extent they were hindered in achieving it by cheating and leaving the game?

I don’t know the exact extent they were hindered by cheaters or leavers. With the utmost humility and respect, I’ll just let others look into this. They can make the decision on final evaluation of the players listed for themselves.

“Have these players faced cheaters and quitters?”

I’m sure they have and if they have, chances are they lost more than 5-10 points because of it….and these point losses might have made the difference in preventing them from hitting the 500+ mark.

“This is not a relevant argument that legalizes unethically gained advantage. I don't envy what zeezee88 achieved, but the way in which he finally managed it, overshadows his success. The taste of the indisputable result would have been sweeter ...”

If one is going to argue for/against the ethically questionable factor which keeps player x’s points at a certain level (I.e. quitting to keep this player from losing points)

one must also consider whether to argue for/against the ethically questionable factor (cheating to make someone lose & quitting to stop someone from winning) which caused that same person to not get points when they deserved it or even when they lost points unfairly.

It’s definitely possible that it’s because of cheaters and quitters that more than 1 person has not already reached 500.

All point losses from games where cheating happened should be rendered null and void.

If quitting was involved, the team that did not get points as a result of being ahead in score ought to get some points in such a game, for it’s equivalent in many cases to one chess player resigning before the game has finished and agreeing they have lost. Whether or not this is actually true is another question.

This would seem the fair thing to do. Alas, this has not been done. And if this had been done, it would affect your final evaluation of that player on the winning team.

The other fair thing is for those who played games where others cheated against them (and lost as a result) to have points which were lost returned to them. This has not been done also. And if this actually happened, it would also affect your final evaluation of that player.

When we look at the bigger picture of what’s ‘fair’ in this game, we must expand our outlook so that it takes in every factor possible.