How can BGA improve Real-Time matchmaking?

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Goldgrog
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Joined: 25 January 2023, 07:00

Re: How can BGA improve Real-Time matchmaking?

Post by Goldgrog »

What I preferred about the * platform vs. BGA is that if you just wanted to play a quick game and didn't have time or want to wait around for REAL players, you could choose to play against a bot or a mixture of bots and real people, which tended to reduce the wait time for real players. ALSO - if you wanted to play a new game or one you hadn't played in a while to brush up on your skills, it was less frustrating to play against bots vs. super stars who far outranked you and completely shut down every move you made just because they could. So that would be my suggestion - let us choose to play against bots if we want.

*moderation edit: please do not name specific other online board game platforms
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dschingis27
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Re: How can BGA improve Real-Time matchmaking?

Post by dschingis27 »

Goldgrog wrote: 22 May 2023, 13:11 What I preferred about the * platform vs. BGA is that if you just wanted to play a quick game and didn't have time or want to wait around for REAL players, you could choose to play against a bot or a mixture of bots and real people, which tended to reduce the wait time for real players. ALSO - if you wanted to play a new game or one you hadn't played in a while to brush up on your skills, it was less frustrating to play against bots vs. super stars who far outranked you and completely shut down every move you made just because they could. So that would be my suggestion - let us choose to play against bots if we want.
Which game are you talking about? I hope you noticed that BGA offers hundreds of games. This thread was mostly about unpopular games, for which certainly no * platform exist and most probably no reasonable bot.

I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just don't know: To develop reasonable bots is very hard and time-intensive work! Maybe in some future, AI can do it but that is not the present.

*moderation edit: please do not name specific other online board game platforms
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Goldgrog
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Re: How can BGA improve Real-Time matchmaking?

Post by Goldgrog »

dschingis27 wrote: 22 May 2023, 17:56
Goldgrog wrote: 22 May 2023, 13:11 What I preferred about the * platform vs. BGA is that if you just wanted to play a quick game and didn't have time or want to wait around for REAL players, you could choose to play against a bot or a mixture of bots and real people, which tended to reduce the wait time for real players. ALSO - if you wanted to play a new game or one you hadn't played in a while to brush up on your skills, it was less frustrating to play against bots vs. super stars who far outranked you and completely shut down every move you made just because they could. So that would be my suggestion - let us choose to play against bots if we want.
Which game are you talking about? I hope you noticed that BGA offers hundreds of games. This thread was mostly about unpopular games, for which certainly no * platform exist and most probably no reasonable bot.

I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just don't know: To develop reasonable bots is very hard and time-intensive work! Maybe in some future, AI can do it but that is not the present.

*moderation edit: please do not name specific other online board game platforms
Thank you - I appreciate the correction on naming the specific platform. Regarding the rest of your reply, the tone and content of your comment suggests that you may have misunderstood the intent and context of my suggestion. So please allow me to clarify:

First, yes, I'm well aware that there are hundreds of games offered on BGA. The other platform I referenced has more than 92,000 titles. I play the same games on BGA that I played on the other platform. The other platform offers the opportunity to play against bots on those specific games while BGA does not. I can't speak to whether the specific games the OP references are offered on the other platform and, if so, if they offer an an opportunity to play against bots. I won't speculate on something I do not have personal experience with. My intent was to offer another idea for the OP to look into to see if it might be a valid solution to his concern.

Second, I cannot speak to the back-end challenges presented by my suggestion. That's not my job. I'm not an online game designer. I am a player sharing my thoughts from the perspective of improving the player experience. I also have no idea whether improvements such as these are part of BGA's business model or plans for expansion. That's up to BGA. I'm just offering a suggestion. If BGA designers read it and think it's worth following up on, that's great. If that's not in the cards, that's fine too.

Finally, I will say that it's been SEVERAL years since I last played on that other platform that offered the bot feature so I thought it might be helpful to share that I'm not talking about some advanced AI feature of the future. I'm talking about technology that's been around for quite some time.

I hope that helps clear a few things up. Thanks again for the information you provided.

- Goldgrog
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Kayvon
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Re: How can BGA improve Real-Time matchmaking?

Post by Kayvon »

Goldgrog wrote: 22 May 2023, 22:27The other platform offers the opportunity to play against bots on those specific games while BGA does not.
This will sound very pedantic to you, I'm sure, but that other platform doesn't offer bots, the individual games on it do. Likewise, Apple and Android aren't offering bots either, but some of their apps do.

Why does this matter? Because it's the same situation on BGA. Bots would need to be implemented for each game individually. BGA doesn't implement the games, that's done by volunteers, many of whom are gone. Adding this cool feature is very much a case-by-case implementation.

I know you said you didn't care about the backend, but it's very relevant to finding a solution. From the player perspective, the real change you're looking for is to change BGA's policy regarding bots to support individual developers in providing them. It's currently discouraged.
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Goldgrog
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Re: How can BGA improve Real-Time matchmaking?

Post by Goldgrog »

Kayvon wrote: 22 May 2023, 22:38
Goldgrog wrote: 22 May 2023, 22:27The other platform offers the opportunity to play against bots on those specific games while BGA does not.
This will sound very pedantic to you, I'm sure, but that other platform doesn't offer bots, the individual games on it do. Likewise, Apple and Android aren't offering bots either, but some of their apps do.

Why does this matter? Because it's the same situation on BGA. Bots would need to be implemented for each game individually. BGA doesn't implement the games, that's done by volunteers, many of whom are gone. Adding this cool feature is very much a case-by-case implementation.

I know you said you didn't care about the backend, but it's very relevant to finding a solution. From the player perspective, the real change you're looking for is to change BGA's policy regarding bots to support individual developers in providing them. It's currently discouraged.
Thank you for those clarifying points. Not pedantic at all. Very helpful. All I will add is that I never said I don't care about backend challenges. I said that I cannot speak to them. The technical and operational processes that support the BGA experience are not within my sphere of expertise. So all I can do is offer my perspective as a player who appreciates the opportunity to play against bots. Thank you for your clear explanation of why that is unlikely to happen on BGA.
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Kayvon
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Re: How can BGA improve Real-Time matchmaking?

Post by Kayvon »

Good clarification. Sorry for misstating what you'd said.

I really do feel that pushing BGA to provide developer tools is the key. On some games (not all) it would be really fun to design simple AIs.
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Perduicitte
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Re: How can BGA improve Real-Time matchmaking?

Post by Perduicitte »

Thank you all for the ideas!

OP doesn't want this to be about OP, but I did start the thread circumscribing its scope to real-time playing. In that, I have found that there is a disproportion of games being "played now" in real-time, probably at any given time, favouring a limited amount of highly-played games.

One of these are a Wonderful World:
the conclusion here is clear: the currently-running tables statistic is misleading. 71% of new tables every day are real time games for this game.
I agree, it's misleading either way. My "Play Now" need is bolstered by the fact there are many games started [(Arena+PlayNow) + (FriendsOnly+RandomPeople)]. My player interest is lessened as I've played Wonderful World ad nauseam. My BGA (ex-)enthusiast is seeing a clear signal that BGA is not for me, as a customer.

Mind you, at this point, the price can't be beat!!! $0.00 price for the service of 636 games that any of my premium friends can start is a really good deal! BGA replaced other platforms for me, such as * or **, for a while as I was focusing on TB play. Now that I return to RT, it is simply not satisfying because I want access to all games with random opponents, anytime I want. :arrow: Yes, that's a very, very tall order and no, it's not a realistic expectation!

...but I am now reassured that I am not BGA's target audience. I know how to play games, I play them without BGA's intermediary, I buy physical games anyways because I'm a geek, so no, I'm not market expansion myself. And I don't bleep on the radar of an organization who wants to broaden the player-base by making itself more newcomers-friendly. :arrow: I don't question that, it's a valuable goal to some, just without value for me.

I wish I had strong players around, whatever their language and location, to play RT, on more than a handful of games. Yes, other platforms achieve that through AI, that was a very good point. No, AI is not feasible for all BGA games, as their developers are gone / otherwise busy, that's another good point. Yes, buying games off the menu on * or ** platforms are definitely much more expensive than BGA, whether free or premium.

I guess it's the wait that killed me. eg: "Maybe we're 3? Oh no, we're back at 2. Oh no, just me, the other guy lost patience too. Oh well, I'll do something else." We all have different experiences, I've told you about mine.

Thanks all,

me
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nik592
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Re: How can BGA improve Real-Time matchmaking?

Post by nik592 »

Have you ever been to a board game con? Your expectation kind of reminds me of the experiences I've seen where people will put up a sign looking for players on a game they want to play. Sometimes, players turn up quickly, other times they're not interested. You either wait it out, or you choose something else. But I don't think the con would promise you that you can pickup and play any game you want within minutes, no matter the size of the convention. The people at the con can do what they want. Sure, if the con says, well we're only offering Azul, TTR and Carcassonne, then you'll probably be able to guarantee those games will get played. But when you widen the pool to 600+ games (even 100 games), some will probably never get played.

BGA can't materialise people to play all of the games you happen to want RT (and I realise you say that your expectation is unrealistic, but isn't wanting it to be at least closer to reality why you raised this thread) - even with your suggestions. They could spend thousands on marketing, and end up with a bunch of new players who just want to play It's a Wonderful World (or something else you don't want). Or just want to play turn-based. They could disband Arena and some users may leave, some may play turn-based, it doesn't guarantee that those people would fall into playing real-time games that you happen to like. If you feel you're not getting value for your premium subscription, for whatever reason, then sure, don't pay for one. But I doubt BGA would ever promise a better chance of getting to play your favourite games (regardless of RT or TB) as a subscription perk - they can't really control that.

Your best bet of having a dedicated group to play the games you want to play is to seek those people out yourself - either online or IRL. I heard someone suggest you should be friending those you get to play with on occasion so you can tell when they're next on, which seems like a reasonable idea. I personally have a bunch of RL friends on BGA, who I don't get to see as much as we now all have young children. We're pretty open to playing whatever others in the group want, so I think everyone mostly gets to play what they want. But then I know you've also said you don't want to play with your RL friends on BGA, so that option probably doesn't suit you either.
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mistrustreplace
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Re: How can BGA improve Real-Time matchmaking?

Post by mistrustreplace »

When i am selecting a lobby to join, i cant see all of the rules until i click on the lobby. and navigating into a lobby and back out to the lobby select screen is a huge pain.its not smooth.

what would be nice is if a player can title their game with a short limited "title" or "summary"
Allow players to write something like 10 character max comment about their game.

This is what many other online games allow so players know what they are about to hop into when joining a server or something.
Current example is when joining bang! games, i cant tel whether im joining a game with random character selection or manual pick between 2 random characters.

So a bang! lobby host might title their game "PICK + GHOST" to imply picking your character from 2 and ghost town enabled.
These type of comments are something that players in the community will simply pick up on.
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Perduicitte
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Re: How can BGA improve Real-Time matchmaking?

Post by Perduicitte »

what would be nice is if a player can title their game with a short limited "title" or "summary"
You got that done! Into "Play Now" (until they withdraw it) you have the (no presentation yet) [modify] thingy-dingy that allows you to do exactly that; look under the games settings. But then, on "Play now" it's a mostly redundant feature as it already is pretty much a perfect user interface. Don't know about the new lobby. "Don't use until they wipe it out" it is my best advice about that one. And when they make it the only thing, anyways, you'll know it's not you they're interested in if you're able to use "Play Now". Priorities and decision-making = interest of leadership.

Now... I'm back because I'm mourning. I don't even come back to BGA to play, I come back to the forums, to understand why I don't want to play. :|

Well, I've done more thinking...
*Please*: If you're not interested in Real-Time play with random people, go on and live your life without replying! We all love you nonetheless, but your irrelevant comment will not be missed. (I haven't been to a gamecon and will never do such thing. Not my cup of tea. I want to play, not look at what could be played. I've actually been on the BoD for local game weekends, where we play. Yup, just play, until we're too exhausted or drunk. Very few marketing stalls or other distractions, and those were against my vote.)

:arrow: Are there people, like I've expressed the perspective, that care about starting a Real-Time game with random people, having more options than the coercion of Arena play and top-10 (on BGA) played games?
I think I've met many, but I'm unsure because very few have eluded that they share the desire, in this thread. Real-world mates discarded.

[For the record: most of my mates don't give a humpf about BGA since the pandemic ended, others will meet for what has been expressed already: distance or family life makes it the best alternative; but it's not random folks, they actually make appointments to play... :roll: they could play elsewhere, but here the price is unbeatable at $0.00 and the games that are coded are well coded!]

What would help prove/disprove the argument is intelligence about:
  • IMPORTANTLY: What proportion of the player population starts tables for games, and for what games, that are never filled and they just abandon; or another table fills first and they play the other table? How long is the average wait time per RT table that is filled / unfilled, disaggregated per game?
  • What proportion of RT disaggregated games are played in Arena?
  • What proportion of RT disaggregated games are played in "Play Now" *with 2 or 3+ friends around the table*, as I've often used that trick to fill tables for games that are much, much better with 3/4/5/+ players?
The *importantly* bit would qualify / disprove the vicious-circle I've experienced: (Play Now) No play = (me) compromise for lesser fun & choice = (all players trying Play Now) less play for non-compromise & fun! = (me) no play for greater fun! = (all) less play for fun! = (me) no play = (all) less = (me) nope.

The *intelligence about* bit is because we need hard data. Most players, like me, probably have no interest whatsoever in the forums aside from when they have a problem. They very likely wouldn't manifest here. But that's easy to write, and to prove / disprove it: only data matters. Any tech-wizard has found that data? Unlikely that leadership would share that sort of thing. Less likely to a disgruntled-player-started thread.

For those annoyed by this thread, I'm over my mourning soon. If no-one replies, my horse is dead. We're far from "How can BGA improve Real-Time matchmaking?" now, I guess; my mind's more into "does BGA have any incentive or interest to improve Real-Time matchmaking?", I guess.

Cheers,

me
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