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Animal II Strength 5 - Is taking the Reputation point optional?
Posted: 05 June 2023, 06:14
by Smells_Familiar
The rules state: "In addition, you may increase the reputation of your zoo by 1, if you preform this action with a strength of at least 5." In the BGA implementation, the Reputation point isn't optional at this time. According to the rules, it should be optional, right? This is important during the end game, when you will be the player to trigger end game and you want to max out your score. Placing your Appeal tracker as far as possible, without meeting your CP marker, and then supporting a big Conservation Project is something I try to do, now that I understand the game more. If your Reputation is already maxed out, playing Animals II on power 5 can force you to take 1 Appeal, which can force your Appeal and CP markers to potentially meet. I was just in this situation and fortunately had a different animal I could play that gave less appeal points, which allowed me to complete my plan and finish with a 5 point CP.
I apologize if this has already been answered here. I saw some folks on BGG state that indeed the Reputation point is optional, so I thought I'd ask here since the BGA implementation forces you to take it.
Re: Animal II Strength 5 - Is taking the Reputation point optional?
Posted: 05 June 2023, 07:06
by cigma
Good point!
Re: Animal II Strength 5 - Is taking the Reputation point optional?
Posted: 05 June 2023, 16:26
by JDansp
It is mandatory. Although, I don't think you have to get the rep before playing your animals as BGA forces you to do?
Re: Animal II Strength 5 - Is taking the Reputation point optional?
Posted: 05 June 2023, 16:56
by Tisaac
It's mandatory to take it first and almost pretty sure you also have to take it
Re: Animal II Strength 5 - Is taking the Reputation point optional?
Posted: 05 June 2023, 17:29
by Remkar
***EDIT*** addition: after rereading it, I posted again below...
But basically I initially interpreted it as Jellby's (see their post below) interpretation 1, but I definitely see both interpretations on a closer read. Since the game rules in general (as stated by the designer) have generally favored moving the game forward over stalling, my guess is they meant it to be mandatory, but I think it definitely needs a rewording no matter which interpretation is meant at it is ambiguous.
*** END EDIT (original post below)***
It is mandatory. If you read the rest of that sentence, you'll see that the "may" isn't referring to a choice, but just referencing that it only happens at 5 or higher power for that action (but then it DOES happen with no option to refuse).
Re: Animal II Strength 5 - Is taking the Reputation point optional?
Posted: 05 June 2023, 22:59
by Smells_Familiar
Remkar wrote: ↑05 June 2023, 17:29
It is mandatory. If you read the rest of that sentence, you'll see that the "may" isn't referring to a choice, but just referencing that it only happens at 5 or higher power for that action (but then it DOES happen with no option to refuse).
I read the entire sentence, and I actually quoted the entire sentence. I think you meant to type "paragraph". Anyway, you're very confident that the rulebook says that taking the Reputation is mandatory, and "does happen with no option to refuse". Nowhere does it say this. It seems Tisaac isn't even 100% sure.
The rules on page 13 state: "In addition, you MAY increase the reputation of your zoo by 1, if you preform this action with a strength of at least 5." In most rulebooks, the word "may" is used intentionally to communicate to the player that they have a choice to do, or to not do "X". The word "may" is used elsewhere in the Ark Nova rulebook to indicate choices. For instance, for Animals II, a player may play up to 2 animals - from their hand, from the display, or a combo. A player doesn't have to play 2 animals - they can play 1 if they want - they just can't use the Animals action and not play at least 1 animal. They would use the X token action instead, if not playing an animal. They also can't take any action and do nothing. Like "may" being used in the rules to indicate choice, similarly the word "must" is also intentionally used elsewhere to indicate a lack of choice.
I could be wrong here, and that's fine. I'd just like to get an official answer, as I ran into a situation affected by this yesterday. Thanks for the replies!
Re: Animal II Strength 5 - Is taking the Reputation point optional?
Posted: 05 June 2023, 23:43
by Remkar
I just reread the section after reading your post , and now I'm uncertain, haha!
I had initially read it in a manner like:
This card MAY have this ability, but only IF you hit 5+ power. Then, if you hit 5+ power, you immediately gain the reputation before playing any animals (the sentence after the one you posted). So I was not interpreting the MAY as referencing player choice, but as card power possibility. I.e., instead of saying the card raises your reputation by 1, they are saying it MAY raise your reputation by 1 (if these conditions are met).
I'm not sure if that clarified my original interpretation, haha!
But a closer reading does not make me feel as confident as I originally did, so my apologies.
In a rush now, but I'll an edit on my original post later when I get a chance.
Re: Animal II Strength 5 - Is taking the Reputation point optional?
Posted: 06 June 2023, 08:35
by Jellby
I think the phrasing is ambiguous, it could mean:
1. You have the option of playing the card with strength 5 or more, and then you must increase your reputation
or
2. If you play the card with strength 5 or more, you have the option of increasing your reputation
Given the wording of the rest of the section, I'd be more inclined to interpretation #2, but I don't know if there has been some more authoritative ruling. Note that it also says "increase your reputation at the very beginning of your action", but then it makes it sound as just a piece of advice, so it looks like that could be done at any point during your action.
Re: Animal II Strength 5 - Is taking the Reputation point optional?
Posted: 14 June 2023, 00:48
by JDansp
Smells_Familiar wrote: ↑05 June 2023, 22:59
Remkar wrote: ↑05 June 2023, 17:29
It is mandatory. If you read the rest of that sentence, you'll see that the "may" isn't referring to a choice, but just referencing that it only happens at 5 or higher power for that action (but then it DOES happen with no option to refuse).
I read the entire sentence, and I actually quoted the entire sentence. I think you meant to type "paragraph". Anyway, you're very confident that the rulebook says that taking the Reputation is mandatory, and "does happen with no option to refuse". Nowhere does it say this. It seems Tisaac isn't even 100% sure.
The rules on page 13 state: "In addition, you MAY increase the reputation of your zoo by 1, if you preform this action with a strength of at least 5." In most rulebooks, the word "may" is used intentionally to communicate to the player that they have a choice to do, or to not do "X". The word "may" is used elsewhere in the Ark Nova rulebook to indicate choices. For instance, for Animals II, a player may play up to 2 animals - from their hand, from the display, or a combo. A player doesn't have to play 2 animals - they can play 1 if they want - they just can't use the Animals action and not play at least 1 animal. They would use the X token action instead, if not playing an animal. They also can't take any action and do nothing. Like "may" being used in the rules to indicate choice, similarly the word "must" is also intentionally used elsewhere to indicate a lack of choice.
I could be wrong here, and that's fine. I'd just like to get an official answer, as I ran into a situation affected by this yesterday. Thanks for the replies!
Rulebook is very confusing here, I had a chat with Wigge a while back and he said you have to take the rep if you do animals at 5.
Re: Animal II Strength 5 - Is taking the Reputation point optional?
Posted: 06 July 2023, 05:03
by Smells_Familiar
JDansp wrote: ↑14 June 2023, 00:48
Smells_Familiar wrote: ↑05 June 2023, 22:59
Remkar wrote: ↑05 June 2023, 17:29
It is mandatory. If you read the rest of that sentence, you'll see that the "may" isn't referring to a choice, but just referencing that it only happens at 5 or higher power for that action (but then it DOES happen with no option to refuse).
I read the entire sentence, and I actually quoted the entire sentence. I think you meant to type "paragraph". Anyway, you're very confident that the rulebook says that taking the Reputation is mandatory, and "does happen with no option to refuse". Nowhere does it say this. It seems Tisaac isn't even 100% sure.
The rules on page 13 state: "In addition, you MAY increase the reputation of your zoo by 1, if you preform this action with a strength of at least 5." In most rulebooks, the word "may" is used intentionally to communicate to the player that they have a choice to do, or to not do "X". The word "may" is used elsewhere in the Ark Nova rulebook to indicate choices. For instance, for Animals II, a player may play up to 2 animals - from their hand, from the display, or a combo. A player doesn't have to play 2 animals - they can play 1 if they want - they just can't use the Animals action and not play at least 1 animal. They would use the X token action instead, if not playing an animal. They also can't take any action and do nothing. Like "may" being used in the rules to indicate choice, similarly the word "must" is also intentionally used elsewhere to indicate a lack of choice.
I could be wrong here, and that's fine. I'd just like to get an official answer, as I ran into a situation affected by this yesterday. Thanks for the replies!
Rulebook is very confusing here, I had a chat with Wigge a while back and he said you have to take the rep if you do animals at 5.
I appreciate the follow-up. Yeah, people on BGA were saying that the original German rulebook uses the wording "darfst" and not "musst", which indicates that it's optional there too. Very confusing. Since you've spoken with the designer about this, we've now got an official ruling. Thanks!