For the 1000th time, we really need an ELO filter in Arena

[ElThoesen]

I've said it in the new season threads, I've said it in other threads on here, but I think it deserves its own topic: we really, REALLY need a pure ELO filter in Arena. I know how ELO works, I know that stochastically over time it should work itself out. It doesn't matter. I should have the ability to filter out players near the end of the season who managed elite league but are under 200 ELO. Nothing is worse than barely missing first in 3P and getting dinged 7-10 ELO points because the person in third, who you more than DOUBLED their total (because you have thousands of more games experience so that's not a surprise), has like 125 ELO.


It isn't complicated. Most Chess apps allow you to set ELO limits. I don't understand why BGA can't implement something like this. /rant

[RicardoRix]

You can filter by ELO, just not in Arena. They are meant to be 2 separate things.
If you play Arena, then you can set a filter by leagues.
If you don't play in Arena, then you can filter by ELO.

I'm guessing most people just don't mind that an exchange of ELO occurs during Arena games. ELO is on by default, only in friendly games is it turned off.

[Jellby]

ELO is supposed to be measure over all games. If you want to control your opponents' ELO don't play Arena. In Arena you're not supposed to be able to pick your opponent (except for the Arena league).

And there are many, many, many things way worse than losing 7-10 ELO points in some website.

[dschingis27]

You can filter by ELO, just not in Arena.

That's exactly the problem. Why can I not filter opponents by skill when I want to play competetively? To me this is absurd.

I think OP is referring to the Elite Arena Score (EAS). Anyway it would be nice to be able to filter opponents by skill in Arena, either by Elo, or by EAS, although EAS would make more sense in Arena.

There is a reason why in sports, in e-sports, in amateur sports, in friendly tournaments, people are grouped by their skill. Because it provides the best experience for most. It works nicely in BGA normal mode. Only in BGA Arena mode, we somehow refuse to do that. And don't tell me it's done with the leagues, that does not work well at all.

Furthermore, as long as K factors stay as they are, Arena mode is a joke anyway. For games like 7Wonders, your EAS mostly reflects your recent luck, your actual performance over the course of the whole season is not represented well.

[RicardoRix]

..... And don't tell me it's done with the leagues, that does not work well at all.

Well, that's how it's suppose to work. So you're talking about a different issue if it's the leagues filter that doesn't actually work.

Furthermore, as long as K factors stay as they are, Arena mode is a joke anyway. For games like 7Wonders, your EAS mostly reflects your recent luck, your actual performance over the course of the whole season is not represented well.

This is also a different problem to the filtering by ELO.

If you're just doing some Arena bashing, then I won't argue, these are good points. But personally, for the OP, I can't see why standard ELO should be turned off for Arena.

[dschingis27]

..... And don't tell me it's done with the leagues, that does not work well at all.

Well, that's how it's suppose to work. So you're talking about a different issue if it's the leagues filter that doesn't actually work.

I didn't want to say that the leagues filter technically doesn't work. I wanted to say that the leagues themselves don't work in classifying players by skill. If they would, and the league filters worked, then it would solve OPs problem.

If you're just doing some Arena bashing, then I won't argue, these are good points.

For some reason, I really needed to do that yesterday.

But personally, for the OP, I can't see why standard ELO should be turned off for Arena.

I think nowhere is OP suggesting to turn off Elo for Arena. And I mentioned the adjusted K factors because it would at least mitigate the problem OP is talking about. If the most recent games you played had not such a big impact on your score, it would not feel that bad to lose against low rated players here and there. But as it is now, two unlucky games lost against low rated players, it can destroy your score. For me, these are often the moments when I stop playing Arena.

[RicardoRix]

But personally, for the OP, I can't see why standard ELO should be turned off for Arena.

I think nowhere is OP suggesting to turn off Elo for Arena. And I mentioned the adjusted K factors because it would at least mitigate the problem OP is talking about. If the most recent games you played had not such a big impact on your score, it would not feel that bad to lose against low rated players here and there. But as it is now, two unlucky games lost against low rated players, it can destroy your score. For me, these are often the moments when I stop playing Arena.

You're right, I did get that slightly wrong. But it is the loss of ELO against a low rated player that they were mostly annoyed about, and so then asking for an ELO filter.

But the K factor thing only effects the individual player. ELO is not exchanged in the same amounts, just because you meet a player with a high K factor, doesn't mean you'll lose more ELO. They will gain more, but it's your own K factor in your own calculation.
Just for clarity, I believe they are just talking about standard ELO, and not Arena Elite EAS. So I'm talking just about standard ELO calculations, and nothing to do with how Arena is calculated.

[ElThoesen]

I think nowhere is OP suggesting to turn off Elo for Arena. And I mentioned the adjusted K factors because it would at least mitigate the problem OP is talking about. If the most recent games you played had not such a big impact on your score, it would not feel that bad to lose against low rated players here and there. But as it is now, two unlucky games lost against low rated players, it can destroy your score. For me, these are often the moments when I stop playing Arena.

You are correct. I did not, in any way, suggest removing ELO from Arena play. Nor would I want to, as those are competitive games. I'm simply requesting we have better control over the level of opponent we play against. You can set a limit for opponent arena level and reputation in the settings. Why can't we add another criteria for >100 ELO, >200 ELO, etc? In fact, that setting is already available in non-arena games. Why can't we have both Arena score AND ELO score as filters for Arena play?

[dschingis27]

But the K factor thing only effects the individual player. ELO is not exchanged in the same amounts, just because you meet a player with a high K factor, doesn't mean you'll lose more ELO. They will gain more, but it's your own K factor in your own calculation.

For disclosure: I was talking about EAS, not Elo, but what I say here applies to both scores.

What I wanted to criticize about the K factor is that we have a constant flat K factors for all games, period. It's the most stupid thing in the whole of BGA. (I know we have differences based on player count and player experience, but I mean the "base K factor" which is K=20 for Elo, and K=40 for EAS.) The K factor determines "recency bias" in the Elo or EAS calculation, i.e. the higher the K factor, the more weight is given to more recent games you played rather than older games (i.e. the K factor determines the severity how strong your EAS or Elo is changed by a single game, the stronger a single game result changes EAS or Elo, the quicker old game results get "forgotton", the very last game played is always the most influential on your score). For a game like Terra Mystica or Through the Ages, it makes sense that the most recent, say, 20 games determine your Elo or EAS. This is how it is with the current K factors. Games like these have a steep learning curve and 20 games comprises a lot of playtime. But your latest only 20 results are totally meaningless for games like Backgammon, Can't Stop, or 7Wonders. The base K factor should be much smaller for these games so that more older game results count more and overall more playtime is included. For many short luck-focused games, the last hour you played is the main determinant of your EAS score, you can destroy your score in 20 minutes in what we call a 3 months long competition.

I don't know how others manage to continue playing Arena regularly season after season. I would love to do that but I find it so frustrating to lose so many points in one or two games, and also knowing how much your recent games count compared to older games makes me feel stupid hoping for a good score. My time playing Arena often ends in frustration and regret. I still hope that some real change can be done to Arena in the future.

[ElThoesen]

For a game like Terra Mystica or Through the Ages, it makes sense that the most recent, say, 20 games determine your Elo or EAS. This is how it is with the current K factors. Games like these have a steep learning curve and 20 games comprises a lot of playtime. But your latest only 20 results are totally meaningless for games like Backgammon, Can't Stop, or 7Wonders. The base K factor should be much smaller for these games so that more older game results count more and overall more playtime is included.

Hol' up.

...is that seriously how our ELO is calculated? I never dove into the K factor in the calculations. Are you serious?

That explains so much.

It also still doesn't solve my problem.

I want to play against good opponents. I don't want to play some ELO 125 novice who implements a random pointless strategy that, while securing third place for them, also sinks me to second rather than first. I just don't want that experience. I should be able to avoid it. My 3P games are far more enjoyable when both opponents are clever, experienced players rather than playing "who is the newbie gonna shoot in the foot along with themselves". And I feel bad for opponents when it happens to them. I'd like to be able to play high-level 7 Wonders still within Arena.