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Most complex game in BGA
Posted: 19 July 2023, 09:16
by shm0007
Just curious, is there any game in BGA that has a complexity of 5/5? So far I've explored 30+ games, couldn't find any. Even some pretty complex games are labeled as 2/3.
Re: Most complex game in BGA
Posted: 19 July 2023, 09:44
by nccc
Re: Most complex game in BGA
Posted: 19 July 2023, 10:09
by Meeplelowda
shm0007 wrote: ↑19 July 2023, 09:16
Just curious, is there any game in BGA that has a complexity of 5/5? So far I've explored 30+ games, couldn't find any. Even some pretty complex games are labeled as 2/3.
I easily found two in under a minute:
City of the Big Shoulders
Dungeon Petz
Go to the Games pages and select "For Core Gamers" under Complexity. Then when you mouseover a game it brings up basic details, including its complexity rating. There are certainly more of them.
Re: Most complex game in BGA
Posted: 19 July 2023, 11:07
by RobertBr
shm0007 wrote: ↑19 July 2023, 09:16
Just curious, is there any game in BGA that has a complexity of 5/5? So far I've explored 30+ games, couldn't find any. Even some pretty complex games are labeled as 2/3.
Be cautious of difficulty ratings, because they are measured relative to other games and that inevitably means a subset of games. A couple have been mentioned but these are actually relatively light compared to Unconditional Surrender, which is available on BGA, because they are being measured only relative to other mass market board games. And its worth noting USE is a quite light compared to the general class of 300+ counter monster hex and counter games.
Re: Most complex game in BGA
Posted: 19 July 2023, 15:37
by Tisaac
RobertBr wrote: ↑19 July 2023, 11:07
shm0007 wrote: ↑19 July 2023, 09:16
Just curious, is there any game in BGA that has a complexity of 5/5? So far I've explored 30+ games, couldn't find any. Even some pretty complex games are labeled as 2/3.
Be cautious of difficulty ratings, because they are measured relative to other games and that inevitably means a subset of games. A couple have been mentioned but these are actually relatively light compared to Unconditional Surrender, which is available on BGA, because they are being measured only relative to other mass market board games. And its worth noting USE is a quite light compared to the general class of 300+ counter monster hex and counter games.
It's even worse than that. Unless it's changed afterwise, complexity is something developpers set when developping a game, and it's set to 3 as default and i am not sure that every dev thinks about changing it.
Re: Most complex game in BGA
Posted: 20 July 2023, 08:47
by T72on1
Tisaac wrote: ↑19 July 2023, 15:37
RobertBr wrote: ↑19 July 2023, 11:07
shm0007 wrote: ↑19 July 2023, 09:16
Just curious, is there any game in BGA that has a complexity of 5/5? So far I've explored 30+ games, couldn't find any. Even some pretty complex games are labeled as 2/3.
Be cautious of difficulty ratings, because they are measured relative to other games and that inevitably means a subset of games. A couple have been mentioned but these are actually relatively light compared to Unconditional Surrender, which is available on BGA, because they are being measured only relative to other mass market board games. And its worth noting USE is a quite light compared to the general class of 300+ counter monster hex and counter games.
It's even worse than that. Unless it's changed afterwise, complexity is something developpers set when developping a game, and it's set to 3 as default and i am not sure that every dev thinks about changing it.
Says the developer of Barrage, who left that game at 3
. Or is that intentional? Don't get me wrong, I own the game, and still don't understand the 4.09/5 difficulty rating it gets at BGG (even a bit higher with the expansion), while it's not that difficult in terms of rules in my opinion (in terms of decision making, it's another story of course).
My point is just that, indeed, here at BGA, the difficulty rating seems to be far less accurate than on BGG. Or at least has to be interpreted in a different way.
Re: Most complex game in BGA
Posted: 20 July 2023, 09:12
by Tisaac
T72on1 wrote: ↑20 July 2023, 08:47
Tisaac wrote: ↑19 July 2023, 15:37
RobertBr wrote: ↑19 July 2023, 11:07
Be cautious of difficulty ratings, because they are measured relative to other games and that inevitably means a subset of games. A couple have been mentioned but these are actually relatively light compared to Unconditional Surrender, which is available on BGA, because they are being measured only relative to other mass market board games. And its worth noting USE is a quite light compared to the general class of 300+ counter monster hex and counter games.
It's even worse than that. Unless it's changed afterwise, complexity is something developpers set when developping a game, and it's set to 3 as default and i am not sure that every dev thinks about changing it.
Says the developer of Barrage, who left that game at 3
. Or is that intentional? Don't get me wrong, I own the game, and still don't understand the 4.09/5 difficulty rating it gets at BGG (even a bit higher with the expansion), while it's not that difficult in terms of rules in my opinion (in terms of decision making, it's another story of course).
My point is just that, indeed, here at BGA, the difficulty rating seems to be far less accurate than on BGG. Or at least has to be interpreted in a different way.
I was definitively included myself in that list of devs
Re: Most complex game in BGA
Posted: 20 July 2023, 17:44
by ViolentSilence
T72on1 wrote: ↑20 July 2023, 08:47My point is just that, indeed, here at BGA, the difficulty rating seems to be far less accurate than on BGG. Or at least has to be interpreted in a different way.
Honestly I give very little credence to the 'weight' rankings on BGG anyway - part of the problem is that heavy gamers tend to play heavy games and that skews their numbers down a little. Light games go in reverse and it feels like there is a good amount of titles where the ranking only works for a certain audience.
Part of it too is what makes a game complex is maybe a bit different for some people - does it depend on how many rules there are? How many edge cases? How many things you have to keep track of? Does the layout of the game make it hard to monitor certain things? Do more opponents change how many things you have to monitor or plan for? Conversely, do some titles do things that help make rules intuitive?
It would be nice if there was some way to identify the types of complexity in a game, rather than just reduce it to a number. I feel like that would be a more useful approach but I think I'm in a minority on that
Re: Most complex game in BGA
Posted: 20 July 2023, 23:21
by cigma
Complexitiy (and other BGA parameters) are already widely discussed here:
https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30423
Re: Most complex game in BGA
Posted: 21 July 2023, 08:51
by T72on1
ViolentSilence wrote: ↑20 July 2023, 17:44
T72on1 wrote: ↑20 July 2023, 08:47My point is just that, indeed, here at BGA, the difficulty rating seems to be far less accurate than on BGG. Or at least has to be interpreted in a different way.
Honestly I give very little credence to the 'weight' rankings on BGG anyway - part of the problem is that heavy gamers tend to play heavy games and that skews their numbers down a little. Light games go in reverse and it feels like there is a good amount of titles where the ranking only works for a certain audience.
Part of it too is what makes a game complex is maybe a bit different for some people - does it depend on how many rules there are? How many edge cases? How many things you have to keep track of? Does the layout of the game make it hard to monitor certain things? Do more opponents change how many things you have to monitor or plan for? Conversely, do some titles do things that help make rules intuitive?
It would be nice if there was some way to identify the types of complexity in a game, rather than just reduce it to a number. I feel like that would be a more useful approach but I think I'm in a minority on that
I don't know if you are in a minority there. I surely feel that way too. Like you say, difficulty depends on so many things. I have always wondered if there are some guidelines to use for the difficulty ratings there.