Board Game Arena

Table # 428994827

For the past 5+ games with the same people we have always been in the same seating order. Is the player turn order random or is there an issue with the same person clicking "rematch" and setting up the same table with the same people. Start player seems to be random, but it always goes Michaelhastriter, WorkerPlacement, Xenophia, LarkinHastriter in that order and it is just funny because in a turn based game, based on our time zones, this is the most annoying result.

So is seating order random under these conditions?

For what it's worth, there are only 6 possible orders with 4 players, and the odds of it being the same in 5 consecutive games (if random) are 1 in 1296 (6^4).

If seating order is preserved for rematches, I highly doubt that would be a Wingspan-specific thing - it would most likely be the way BGA works. So I suggest posting about this in the general discussion forum, not in this Wingspan-only forum.

michaelHastriter wrote: ↑22 October 2023, 18:41 Table # 428994827

For the past 5+ games with the same people we have always been in the same seating order. Is the player turn order random or is there an issue with the same person clicking "rematch" and setting up the same table with the same people. Start player seems to be random, but it always goes Michaelhastriter, WorkerPlacement, Xenophia, LarkinHastriter in that order and it is just funny because in a turn based game, based on our time zones, this is the most annoying result.

So is seating order random under these conditions?

I'll answer all of these, with a healthy dose of editorializing in my response, as you've touched on a topic that I feel strongly about.

It'll literally be the first thing in the log every rematch: "Rematch with the exact same players detected: player order has been swapped."

...which is totally inaccurate, because player order is never swapped but maintained—that's precisely why you consistently see the exact same player order every game.

Start player is not at all random, though, but rather rotated (which is probably the word that BGA should have chosen instead of "swapped"): the player who went last (in the first round) in your previous game will have gone first in your current game; this first player will then go second in your next rematch.

Yes, it's an "issue": it is beyond stupid that any one play should have any affect on a subsequent play of the next game—this isn't a legacy game. But it's an issue completely by design on BGA's part, or it wouldn't have a log entry of its own. It's even more ridiculous that this functionality is forced on the playerbase instead of making it an option that players have to opt-in on.

However, to answer your specific question, it's not an issue with the same person clicking "rematch". Some friends and I tested this a few years back, and it's only relevant whether the same players are at the table for the rematch.

I hope that all answers your questions.

Cos- wrote: ↑22 October 2023, 23:48 If seating order is preserved for rematches, I highly doubt that would be a Wingspan-specific thing - it would most likely be the way BGA works. So I suggest posting about this in the general discussion forum, not in this Wingspan-only forum.

Correct, it's not specific to Wingspan. It happens for rematches of every game except 7 Wonders, for which BGA suspended this annoying functionality shortly after that game was first released.

There is a setting I can change in the implementation that disables rotating the first player on rematches:
https://en.doc.boardgamearena.com/Game_ ... of_rematch

I might make this change in the next version (99% there, just finishing up Automa). I'll need to look into the impact it has on Arena mode, if any.

I suspect the behaviour is intended for 2-player games, where it makes sense that the first player is strictly alternated (and not random) for each rematch, and seating order does not matter.

paramesis wrote: ↑23 October 2023, 13:19 There is a setting I can change in the implementation that disables rotating the first player on rematches:
https://en.doc.boardgamearena.com/Game_ ... of_rematch

I might make this change in the next version (99% there, just finishing up Automa). I'll need to look into the impact it has on Arena mode, if any.

Would disabling this setting also prevent the player order from being preserved across rematches, or would it disable only the rotation of first player?

Jellby wrote: ↑23 October 2023, 15:05 I suspect the behaviour is intended for 2-player games, where it makes sense that the first player is strictly alternated (and not random) for each rematch, and seating order does not matter.

Respectfully, why would it make sense for two-player games? Separate plays of a game are just that: separate. The first player should be should determined according to a game's rules (or determined randomly, in the case where the "rule" is obviously not serious).

bananasplay wrote: ↑23 October 2023, 16:58 Respectfully, why would it make sense for two-player games?

Because there's often a first- or second-player advantage (or players think there is), and people typically consider it more fair to alternate the first player, rather than have 3-4 games with the same player starting in all of them. As far as I remember, the order swapping only occur if you hit rematch, not if you manually create another table, or get "randomly" matched against the same player in Arena.

Don't they alternate sides in chess tournaments? In many sports too. Note that "makes sense" does not mean "it's what the rules say".