🌿ELO System Updates

Board Game Arena Official announcements
KenFin1
Posts: 185
Joined: 01 September 2022, 16:11

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by KenFin1 »

I don't think they will listen tbh h_illes. Their meagre ELO isn't affected since it's far too low and they only play occasionally so I imagine they just don't understand the problem you describe. You're right but it feels like they're not willing to acknowledge it.

Also I noticed the arena awards were borked again. Another season, more problems all from this unnecessary meddling with ELO and the site code. Just roll it back to how it used to be guys come on, it's ok, we'll actually applaud you.
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RazorOz
Posts: 69
Joined: 25 June 2022, 13:58

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by RazorOz »

gmrsmrt wrote: 05 April 2024, 14:57 We keep assuming that the change is bad for BGA and blaming poor management.
But what if they have evidence that it is indeed good for them?

Particularly with the floor to ELO loss for the net effect will be flattening the ELO curve. What if they have number showing that this is
upsetting a minority of highly competitive players and encouraging the vast majority of remaining players? I have noticed recently a lot of players in
arena I didn't face before.

I seriously doubt that if they have noticed some negative correlation of premium subscriptions with the change they keep everything unmodified...
How can it possibly be good for them? Unless you believe their goal is to kill the site/traffic. The system actively discourages you playing, that means less traffic, if people can't find games they will leave the site which = less subscribers, given the most active players drive a lot of traffic at a lot of games. That's without even getting into that it just plain pisses enough people off to not renew their subscription, which by the time it would be realised it'd be too late.

The supposed upsides to this change are fanciful at best, it doesn't actually stop cheaters at all, they can easily get around it if they wish creating lots of accounts, so what's the point?
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h_illes
Posts: 181
Joined: 14 March 2022, 20:08

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by h_illes »

In the meantime, the losses finally caught up with me (I stopped outperforming my long-term win rate), so I am now well below 800 rating. I don't even have a good way to climb back up, since against most opponents I still have a win streak, and those who have beaten me have taken away more rating points in 1 game than I can recollect during any win streak. Meanwhile, several rivals are ahead of me, their old rating mostly untouched due to playing very few games. Head-to-head records firmly show me as the better player against either of them, yet they are ahead on the rating table.

You have created an unfair playing field, and also stayed ignorant for this fact for 4 months now. This level of incompetence and ignorance is hard to describe (without getting moderated).
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RazorOz
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Joined: 25 June 2022, 13:58

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by RazorOz »

h_illes wrote: 12 April 2024, 10:56 In the meantime, the losses finally caught up with me (I stopped outperforming my long-term win rate), so I am now well below 800 rating. I don't even have a good way to climb back up, since against most opponents I still have a win streak, and those who have beaten me have taken away more rating points in 1 game than I can recollect during any win streak. Meanwhile, several rivals are ahead of me, their old rating mostly untouched due to playing very few games. Head-to-head records firmly show me as the better player against either of them, yet they are ahead on the rating table.

You have created an unfair playing field, and also stayed ignorant for this fact for 4 months now. This level of incompetence and ignorance is hard to describe (without getting moderated).
Yes, it does seem unbelievable that they don't recognise this system actively discourages you from playing, something they surely can't be in favour of. It favours you playing a few games a month, but if everybody did that the site would die.
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GeoPaladin
Posts: 52
Joined: 17 June 2023, 12:21

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by GeoPaladin »

lordalx wrote: 15 March 2024, 09:14 Dear Players,

We appreciate you taking the time to share your feedback regarding the ELO system. We value your input and are committed to ensuring a fair and balanced ranking system for all players.

We understand your concerns about the impact of consecutive losses against the same opponent and the limited visibility of past ELO changes. We have carefully reviewed your feedback and are actively working on addressing these issues.

Upcoming Changes:

[snip]

Finally, remember to focus on having fun, challenging yourself, and enjoying the competition!

ELO isn't a prize or a badge of honor. ELO ratings serve as a tool to gauge relative skill levels and find well-matched opponents, not a measure of personal worth. Focus on enjoying the games, learning from your opponents, and refining your strategies to become a true board game master!

We're always listening to your feedback and working to make Board Game Arena the best place to play. Keep those messages coming!

See you at the tables,

The Board Game Arena Team
It's been a while since I've bothered to post, but I have to add my voice to the many other disappointed ones.

You somehow managed to avoid addressed almost any of the concerns people have posted. This change adversely affects high elo players who play legitimately, particularly in blind arena matchmaking. It's ridiculous that a mere 6 winstreak over a period of 30 days results in a 100% penalty, no matter how many other players you play in between. Even the smaller penalties climb far too fast.

At a bare minimum, the winstreak penalty should be reduced every few games you finish against other players (such as every 3-5 games against other players would reduce the penalty by one level).

I would strongly urge you to remove the penalty in Arena outright, as well. It's an anti-competitive rule in a more competitive-oriented mode and unfair to players due to the blind matchmaking. It incentivizes blocking players you can't gain anything from even if they're good competition.

ELO isn't a prize or a badge of honor. ELO ratings serve as a tool to gauge relative skill levels and find well-matched opponents, not a measure of personal worth. Focus on enjoying the games, learning from your opponents, and refining your strategies to become a true board game master!
With respect, this comes off as patronizing. You don't see why competitive players might reasonably want to attain a high ranking based on skill?

I didn't see anyone here suggest elo was a metric of self-worth, but rather a way of measuring one's skill relative to the competition. It gives a sense of meaningful progression that has been hindered by the new system. The current system is worse even for the purpose you've described, as you've artificially lowered high-ranking players.

This change has been about as demoralizing as running into cheaters, to be frank. I love the site and appreciate most of the work you guys do. Unfortunately this change was for the worse. I would appreciate not telling us how to feel about a system and instead considering the preferences of your audience and customer base.

Please consider reverting the system, or at least changing it to be less punishing & to encourage players to play with other people by reducing the penalty when you play games with other players.
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yaya17
Posts: 33
Joined: 11 January 2013, 14:34

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by yaya17 »

lordalx wrote: 13 December 2023, 10:41 → Red Thumbs for competitive play
One last thing that is going to be changed in a few weeks will be the impact of the Red Thumbs.
You can currently give a Red Thumb to any player with which you had a bad game experience. This prevents you from competing against them in ranked games or the Arena, but not in Tournaments.
This system can, and unfortunately is, used to prevent some players from competing against the best players. Considering that the Red Thumb system is being abused this way, on purpose or not, we will update the way Red Thumbs are impacting the matchmaking for the next season.
So, is this already enforced ? Was anyone able to play in arena with a player who RT you ?
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anykidrated
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Joined: 02 January 2020, 21:52

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by anykidrated »

yaya17 wrote: 13 April 2024, 09:06
lordalx wrote: 13 December 2023, 10:41 → Red Thumbs for competitive play
One last thing that is going to be changed in a few weeks will be the impact of the Red Thumbs.
You can currently give a Red Thumb to any player with which you had a bad game experience. This prevents you from competing against them in ranked games or the Arena, but not in Tournaments.
This system can, and unfortunately is, used to prevent some players from competing against the best players. Considering that the Red Thumb system is being abused this way, on purpose or not, we will update the way Red Thumbs are impacting the matchmaking for the next season.
So, is this already enforced ? Was anyone able to play in arena with a player who RT you ?
Pretty sure I'm still blocked
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Meeplelowda
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Joined: 14 March 2020, 10:31

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Meeplelowda »

yaya17 wrote: 13 April 2024, 09:06
lordalx wrote: 13 December 2023, 10:41 → Red Thumbs for competitive play
One last thing that is going to be changed in a few weeks will be the impact of the Red Thumbs.
You can currently give a Red Thumb to any player with which you had a bad game experience. This prevents you from competing against them in ranked games or the Arena, but not in Tournaments.
This system can, and unfortunately is, used to prevent some players from competing against the best players. Considering that the Red Thumb system is being abused this way, on purpose or not, we will update the way Red Thumbs are impacting the matchmaking for the next season.
So, is this already enforced ? Was anyone able to play in arena with a player who RT you ?
This was never implemented, nor was an explanation given for why it wasn't.
hammastahna
Posts: 9
Joined: 02 December 2023, 02:44

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by hammastahna »

RazorOz wrote: 12 April 2024, 13:23
h_illes wrote: 12 April 2024, 10:56 In the meantime, the losses finally caught up with me (I stopped outperforming my long-term win rate), so I am now well below 800 rating. I don't even have a good way to climb back up, since against most opponents I still have a win streak, and those who have beaten me have taken away more rating points in 1 game than I can recollect during any win streak. Meanwhile, several rivals are ahead of me, their old rating mostly untouched due to playing very few games. Head-to-head records firmly show me as the better player against either of them, yet they are ahead on the rating table.

You have created an unfair playing field, and also stayed ignorant for this fact for 4 months now. This level of incompetence and ignorance is hard to describe (without getting moderated).
Yes, it does seem unbelievable that they don't recognise this system actively discourages you from playing, something they surely can't be in favour of. It favours you playing a few games a month, but if everybody did that the site would die.
Less playing means less server costs.
KenFin1
Posts: 185
Joined: 01 September 2022, 16:11

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by KenFin1 »

yaya17 wrote: 13 April 2024, 09:06
lordalx wrote: 13 December 2023, 10:41 → Red Thumbs for competitive play
One last thing that is going to be changed in a few weeks will be the impact of the Red Thumbs.
You can currently give a Red Thumb to any player with which you had a bad game experience. This prevents you from competing against them in ranked games or the Arena, but not in Tournaments.
This system can, and unfortunately is, used to prevent some players from competing against the best players. Considering that the Red Thumb system is being abused this way, on purpose or not, we will update the way Red Thumbs are impacting the matchmaking for the next season.
So, is this already enforced ? Was anyone able to play in arena with a player who RT you ?
Meeplelowda wrote: 14 April 2024, 12:05
yaya17 wrote: 13 April 2024, 09:06
So, is this already enforced ? Was anyone able to play in arena with a player who RT you ?
This was never implemented, nor was an explanation given for why it wasn't.
In fairness to BGA didn't they say somewhere they weren't implementing it as people pointed out the safety concerns of not being able to block abusive players? I'm not saying there aren't better solutions but currently the red thumb is the only means of protecting oneself, particularly if you are one of the people BGA no longer allow to report players for BGA moderation action. The ELO changes also encourage false red-thumbing and I've noticed more of it the last season than ever before. The whole thing is a mess but they plough on regardless.
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