🌿ELO System Updates

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lordalx
Posts: 164
Joined: 03 March 2015, 21:15

🌿ELO System Updates

Post by lordalx »

Dear players,

Playing on our platform can fit many players' expectations, from casual play and friendly games up to the most competitive way through limited ARENA seasons.
The best way to assess your experience and skill in each game is through the ELO system, which adjusts your ranking points after every non-friendly completed game.
ELO ranking allows to classify players in 7 distinct skills levels: Beginner (0 point), Apprentice (1-99 points), Average (100-199), Good (200-299), Strong (300-499), Expert (500-699), Master (700+).
Source : https://boardgamearena.com/faq?anchor=faq_account_elo

Unfortunately, over time, we have identified several biases in this system that lead us to adjust it in several ways, keeping the focus on your game experience rather than ELO grinding.
In the past update, we already updated the ELO for cooperative games to prevent players from cancelling their game to prevent any ELO loss – you must concede the game instead. We now force`no time limit` games to be played in Friendly Mode only, as previously discussed at length.
We know that ELO is not only a tool to assess players’ skills compared to the whole community, but it is also used to rank players within a same group of regular players or friends, so it will be kept, with the following changes:

→ Team play
It is obviously unfair for games that play with teammates to have different ELO wins/losses within the same team. From now on, when playing games such as Belote, Decrypto, Tichu etc, you will not gain/lose ELO from the other players within your team.
Not all games that can be played as a team are currently under consideration, as some of them are not exclusively designed for team play. These require individual consideration and additional dedicated work.

→ Cooperative play and non competitive game
For cooperative games such as Hanabi, The Crew, or Just One, competition is already disabled. However, some players were too focused on the ELO, which led to unnecessary competitiveness in an environment which should instead incentivize cooperation.
For such games, we decided to hide the ELO value of each player and only display their current rank, from Beginner to Master.
This rank is based on existing win / loss games from the underlying ELO system. This way, you will not lose your rank with this change. For some games where chapters or scenarios are played, the more successful chapter will get you to the next rank faster, but you will not know how far from the next rank you could be at a given time.
This also applies to games where competition is disabled such as Chess.

→ Power levelling
We encountered many situations of power levelling, linked to multi accounts, even if we are still fighting against such practices, it became obvious that the current system might encourage it.
To prevent this, any consecutive wins against the same opponent will reduce the amount of ELO points awarded from this victory. This reduction will be gradually higher as more consecutive wins are accumulated. This way, we encourage you to challenge other players to keep the original spirit of the ELO: show your skill at a game compared to the whole community, not just the same ones.

→ ELO Decay
In the past, some of the strongest players refrained from playing as they could lose ELO, attempting to prevent losing their hard obtained current rank. This lead to situations where players kept their rank without playing anymore. We clearly want to encourage you to play to keep your rank. This will also help other players to be able to compete against the best.
Doing so, a regular ELO decay is introduced to slowly drop the ELO from top ranked players that do not play anymore. The decay will be -10% at the end of the Arena Season for all Strong players and above that did not play any ranked game, but this could be adjusted later (both scope and frequency). The decay will not move player from a rank lower than Strong.

→ Red Thumbs for competitive play
One last thing that is going to be changed in a few weeks will be the impact of the Red Thumbs.
You can currently give a Red Thumb to any player with which you had a bad game experience. This prevents you from competing against them in ranked games or the Arena, but not in Tournaments.
This system can, and unfortunately is, used to prevent some players from competing against the best players. Considering that the Red Thumb system is being abused this way, on purpose or not, we will update the way Red Thumbs are impacting the matchmaking for the next season.


As usual, feel free to post your feedback, we will continue to monitor the current situation and improve the system accordingly.
These changes are a first step towards a more enjoyable overall experience for ranking on the platform and that we heavily rely on your feedback during this process. We acknowledge the existing limitations in the current system and will continue to explore ideas for enhancing the team or cooperative game experience.

All these changes are now mentioned in our FAQ.

PS: Some of this changes were introduced silently yesterday afternoon already, in order of us to perform final checks, unfortunately, this lead to unexpected behavior on ELO for solo games that are currently under individual fixes.
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RicardoRix
Posts: 2117
Joined: 29 April 2012, 23:43

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by RicardoRix »

One more thing:

Here:
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=449052323

The game was abandoned. So the players who 'tied' for 1st place didn't really draw. No ELO should be exchanged for these players.
Last edited by RicardoRix on 13 December 2023, 15:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Romain672
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Joined: 05 April 2016, 13:53

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Romain672 »

Thanks for the update, overall, that seem great.

About team play, there is no solution which resolve all problems, but you took the most used solution by video games, so that should work well :)
About cooperative ranking, that's the main point I don't like. I think that will make me play less since I will have less objectives. And I'm not playing the same way with someone which have 3 or 83 games: for the crew which gave 1 elo per game if the gain didn't changed, I will have no way to adapt anymore.
Power levelling look nice, but I never encounter that problem.
ELO Decay seem nice too. On less popular game, that should make many people goes back to the Strong elo, and the people at the top will be the one which played the most recently which... Is fine, even if I'm not sure it's better. For more popular games, that should be great since the strategy or meta could change over time easily.
And I'm not concerned neither by the Red thumbs part.

:)
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sosotess
Posts: 9
Joined: 21 January 2021, 22:16

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by sosotess »

The only change I mind is the one in coop games. It could make me play less, because I like to get ELO and congratulate others on theirs. And indeed, we won't be able to adapt to other player's level the way we used to. It's a shame, really...
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USAGI TI
Posts: 6
Joined: 03 September 2023, 20:59

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by USAGI TI »

The decay will be -10% at the end of the Arena Season for all Strong players and above that did not play any ranked game




Just to confirm, it means 'non-training mode' games not 'non-arena' games right?>]
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Silene
Posts: 789
Joined: 23 October 2013, 17:50

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Silene »

lordalx wrote: 13 December 2023, 10:41 → ELO Decay
[...]
Doing so, a regular ELO decay is introduced to slowly drop the ELO from top ranked players that do not play anymore. The decay will be -10% at the end of the Arena Season for all Strong players and above that did not play any ranked game, but this could be adjusted later (both scope and frequency). The decay will not move player from a rank lower than Strong.
Unfortunately ELO-decay will invalidate ELO as a measure of skill. Very strong players should have and keep a very good ELO.

I thought Arena medals and XP and achievements are for rewarding recent activity while normal ELO is to measure the skill of a player and make it possible to know what level of play you can expect from this person on an objective and time-independent way.

I really don't see the problem with people just staying there. It's not like when you've been away for a year, you don't have the skill anymore. The assumption that players just do it because they are afraid to lose ELO imo is just false (for most of them). If it's annoying to see them in ranked lists - you can just exclude them from being shown there (but I think you already do that after 60 days or so?).

It's also not fair to their opponents to have incredibly good player in a match but who has only an average ELO (200-300... I know it's called "good player" but it's where the majority of players is).
The great players who only play from time to time will soon be dropped down to below 300 in most their games. (i.e. because they are interested in many games and not play the same game over and over again, or they are just taking a break because they're busy irl). If they go into random match-ups with players on similar ELO-level, they will be grilling average and week players while taking normal ELO from them as if they weren't the top-level-skilled players that they are. And then they'll release those points into nothingness as they play only few games and therefore drop back and back again into the "good player"-range below 300.
I have over 300 ELO in 37 different games right now, and I know players who have way more than that. But I can't play all those games every 3-4 month. Some of them are very lengthy.

This change is bad for players who are interested in many different games and not just a few. Please rethink this. With Arena you already have incentives for the core players of specific games to stay active.
Last edited by Silene on 13 December 2023, 15:57, edited 6 times in total.
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ChiefPointThief
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Joined: 14 August 2020, 22:27

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by ChiefPointThief »

I know there were good intentions behind these changes but some of them need adjustments.

Power leveling - Yes you want to limit ppl using multiple accounts but...... I am #1 in a few games and have faced #2 in a particular arena season as much as 40x. Clearly two elite players going back and forth aren't the same person but with this change my wins over these players would mean nothing after a handful of games. I can't just "challenge other players" as you put it. Also what does consecutive wins mean? Does the streak restart if there is another match in between your last match w/ a player? ex. player a vs b,c,b,d,b is the last match vs b the 3rd consecutive win or 1st?

Elo Decay - I know players being afraid of losing their elo is a thing. I have invited a few ppl to games before and they have told me this. But........
I personally do not stop playing games to keep my elo. In stone age I am expert status (but ranked like 300th) and haven't played in probably a year. According to this I would lose over 50 elo every 3 months? I am currently a strong player in 20 games and have been a strong player in an additional 15. So if I don't participate in each of around 30+ games in a 3 month period I lose anywhere from 30-60 elo each 3 month period? If I am understanding correctly this is drastic and should be changed.

Team Play - I have been calling for this change for awhile. By far the highlight of the changes. I'm guessing the games under construction are games that can be played solo with 2 or 3 players like kami, tic tac match, trio etc

Red Thumbs - +

Coops - Sucks for ppl who had very high elo in their games to have it wiped away. Overall I do think ppl took elo for coop games too seriously considering none I could think of correctly gauged player strength.
Last edited by ChiefPointThief on 13 December 2023, 16:00, edited 1 time in total.
Malo77
Posts: 44
Joined: 24 July 2022, 15:05

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Malo77 »

some extra tweaks/ideas and i would like to see:
- we could have Elo hidden for opponents but it would be nice you can still see yours
- add a Grand Master Level > 900 Elo for filtering, or a free filtering you choose any Elo level
- RT decay : RT for convinience reason / without signaling would last 30 (or 90 ?) days only
- introduce an Areana Mode for Team & Coop games : so competitive people can go there and let the more casual player in the classic play mode
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Jellby
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Joined: 31 December 2013, 12:22

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Jellby »

Silene wrote: 13 December 2023, 15:09 I really don't see the problem with people just staying there. It's not like when you've been away for a year, you don't have the skill anymore. The assumption that players just do it because they are afraid to lose ELO imo is just false (for most of them). If it's annoying to see them in ranked lists - you can just exclude them from being shown there (but I think you already do that after 60 days or so?).
I agree, ELO decay is not such a good idea, in my opinion. Arena score decay would be another thing, to encourage top-rankers to keep playing, but it needs to be faster than the end of the season.

But for ELO... why? You're already hiding the "inactive" players from the "all-time" rank (so it's not really all-time, but rather something like "past two months"). The decay method can apparently very easily be gamed too: just play a game against a beginner/dummy account every 3 months, and you stay at the top.
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Ranior
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Joined: 30 September 2011, 19:39

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Ranior »

I'm very wary about some of these changes.

Power leveling--I understand the concern about the people abusing the system, but I think this "fix" hurts more than it solves. There's a lot of people that just play a bunch of games in a row with friends sometimes, this "fix" isn't good for that. For lots of games with smaller player pools, if you play real time games around the same time most days, you wind up facing the same opponents fairly regularly. Especially for higher player count games. I do not like this change.

Rating Decay--This is also something I'm very strongly against. This is already I thought why we added an arena mode and ranking that does reset every few months. This change is going to make it so that players will be incentivized not to play against players trying to return, and it's going to punish those who are playing against someone whose rating is artificially low from having had it decayed--if I'm playing someone rated 400 that should be 550, that's going to affect lots of other players elo calculations after games they lose to artificially lowered players. It also makes no sense--elo is supposed to show the skill of a player, dropping their rating just because they're not playing the game for awhile is not making your elo number more accurate, it's doing the exact opposite--making the system less accurate. Why would you want to make the number that is ostensibly a measure of skill, less accurate? Why have the number at all if we're denuding it of it's meaning?

Red Thumbs--I'm also wary of this change. Again, I understand some abuse it, and you'd like to fix that. But as long as you don't actually allow players to filter by reputation in arena, and you allow some pretty low reuptation players in, this will be a bad change.

For example, Agricola already has a somewhat of an issue with quitters in arena. The reputation system really doesn't currently punish players enough for leaving games. In a 4 player game that has played over an hour, someone quitting wastes 3+ total hours of other players time. I get someone quitting a 2p Can't Stop game isn't hurting too much, so their reputation dropping a little is fine. But when you can quit an hours long game with many opponents, but then blitz some fast game to get your reputation back, and then go quit again in the long game....this is bad. Red thumbs is the one recourse you've allowed for arena players to actually avoid playing notorious quitters. If you take that away....this will be a bad change for the user experience in longer games where quitters already are making the arena experience difficult at times. If you're insistent on making this change to red thumbs, you better also look at some of the suggestions on how to improve the reputation system. (One suggestion is also to have a reputation per game, so players who quit Agricola games cannot just blitz short games to get their account rep high enough to enter the arena queue for Agricola again, etc. Alternatively modifying the quit penalty for percentage of game played, etc. There's plenty of fine suggestions in your suggestion system for how to raise the standard of play and not make your service so friendly on quitters that waste a lot of other players times)
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