🌿ELO System Updates

Board Game Arena Official announcements
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dschingis27
Posts: 549
Joined: 27 June 2015, 18:30

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by dschingis27 »

Silene wrote: 15 March 2024, 13:42 Solution 1:
Reduce K-Factor in games after consecutive results regardless of the outcome (win less, lose less in both directions)
I haven't been around for a while and have not read everything. But somehting like the above seems to be the best possible solution to me. You could reduce the K factor even down to zero after 6-10 consecutive games against the same opponent.
- The currently implemented system is already in that direction.
- However, it is unfair for the player with consecutive wins.

Simply reducing the K factor instead of skewing the system against the consecutive winner and in favor of the consecutive loser solves the following problems:
- In Arena, you don't have a choice against whom to play. It is unfair to find yourself in a skewed game with nothing you could do about it. By reducing the K factor, you prevent cheaters AND simultaneously don't skew the Elo calculation against the better player. Consecutive games against the same opponent would simply have less impact, but not negative impact for any of the players.
- Even outside Arena, if 2 people want to play many consecutive games and they care about Elo, they are disincentivized to do it. (Happened to me several times that I played a series of revanches against the same player, just because it's fun.) Their overall Elo will tank for no reason and I don't like playing those games where the Elo calculation is already skewed in favor of one player from the start just because that player lost 3+ times in a row. It feels wrong also if I am on the profiting side of that mechanism. Solution: Just reduce K facor over consecutive games. The Elo calculation stays fair but just loses impact, hence doesn't allow easy abuse.
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gmrsmrt
Posts: 21
Joined: 08 January 2021, 17:20

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by gmrsmrt »

dschingis27 wrote: 23 March 2024, 13:08
Silene wrote: 15 March 2024, 13:42 Solution 1:
Reduce K-Factor in games after consecutive results regardless of the outcome (win less, lose less in both directions)
I haven't been around for a while and have not read everything. But somehting like the above seems to be the best possible solution to me.
I was arguing the same and observing that the current behaviour is

-) dumping strong players
-) inflating weak ones (provided they implement what lordalf was indicating in his last post, namely no elo loss for consecutive losses)

We are assuming poor management in most of our posts.

What if they have evidence that this upsets and demotivates a SMALL pool of very active players (which are also the most active in the forum) but
encourage the vast majority of players to play more having better perspective to escalate the ranking? If this is the case the balance would be positive for BGA....
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RazorOz
Posts: 67
Joined: 25 June 2022, 13:58

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by RazorOz »

One suggestion we can do if we must keep the system, and I would strongly support scrapping it altogether is instead of having the ELO reducer locked to a time frame, have it instead linked to number of games.

I mean I'm of the opinion the entire thing is flawed, and I think h_illes post a while ago demonstrated this best showing how he could have a huge win rate, lose ELO, and get closer in ELO to the player he had a huge win rate over. However, even the implementation is flawed, the system as it currently is does not encourage playing, it encourages playing a few games a month. Under the current system I could play the same opponents twice a month and gain more than if I play the same opponents I did 20 games ago a few days later. So instead of resetting from a time frame, it should reset from number of games you play, this would at least encourage people to actually play the game, and not reward inactivity like the current system does.
LesserJester
Posts: 80
Joined: 16 November 2022, 14:37

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by LesserJester »

I don't think we should try and propose alternatives. I'm not interested in a half baked compromise. The alternative is just put it back how it was. That is the outcome we want. Everything else is unecessary. Particularly if "ELO doesn't matter, it's just about having fun".

And once more, can I please ask for an update on hardback competitive mode. Why no ELO reinstatement in games? Also your own game page https://boardgamearena.com/gamepanel?game=hardback (new lobby) shows I have 100 ELO. Why haven't I received my XP award?
Ceaseless
Posts: 321
Joined: 12 November 2022, 17:06

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Ceaseless »

Does anyone remember where the post was saying what the reset factors were regarding elo reductions for consecutive wins? As in x number of days/y number of games played, etc.
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h_illes
Posts: 172
Joined: 14 March 2022, 20:08

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by h_illes »

Ceaseless wrote: 25 March 2024, 19:46 Does anyone remember where the post was saying what the reset factors were regarding elo reductions for consecutive wins? As in x number of days/y number of games played, etc.
They never said so officially. Manual testing shows it counts the games played in the last 30 days or so.
Ceaseless
Posts: 321
Joined: 12 November 2022, 17:06

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Ceaseless »

h_illes wrote: 25 March 2024, 21:46
Ceaseless wrote: 25 March 2024, 19:46 Does anyone remember where the post was saying what the reset factors were regarding elo reductions for consecutive wins? As in x number of days/y number of games played, etc.
They never said so officially. Manual testing shows it counts the games played in the last 30 days or so.
As opposed to the actual number of games played I take it?
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h_illes
Posts: 172
Joined: 14 March 2022, 20:08

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by h_illes »

Ceaseless wrote: 25 March 2024, 21:57
h_illes wrote: 25 March 2024, 21:46
Ceaseless wrote: 25 March 2024, 19:46 Does anyone remember where the post was saying what the reset factors were regarding elo reductions for consecutive wins? As in x number of days/y number of games played, etc.
They never said so officially. Manual testing shows it counts the games played in the last 30 days or so.
As opposed to the actual number of games played I take it?
So if player A wins against player B, take a look at all the games between the two of them in the last 30 days. If the number of consecutive wins for player A before the current win is...
1 -> player A gets a 3% penalty in ELO received
2 -> 11% penalty
3 -> 25% penalty
4 -> 44% penalty
5 -> 67% penalty
6 or more -> 100% penalty
LesserJester
Posts: 80
Joined: 16 November 2022, 14:37

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by LesserJester »

I love the way people ask BGA direct questions, ones that are easy to answer, and they just ignore them entirely. It makes me feel so valued and appreciated as a customer.

I have again declined their offer of a premium membership trial. I'm not going to sign up until they start caring for their customers instead of ignoring them and/or fobbing them off with nonsensical excuses.

For the third time now, please can someone at BGA explain why hardback, a competitive game, has no ELO? Why remove ELO scoring from the competitive games? What is the point of that? You could easily have just forced all coop mode games into friendly mode only. Noone I've seen uses it other than for solo play anyway so I don't think anyone would have minded too much. But no, for some reason this competitive game is not allowed to be scored anymore?! Please explain why not. What abuse did you find in Hardback? What was so bad that it needed you to remove all ELO from it for?
Ceaseless
Posts: 321
Joined: 12 November 2022, 17:06

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Ceaseless »

LesserJester wrote: 26 March 2024, 13:37 I love the way people ask BGA direct questions, ones that are easy to answer, and they just ignore them entirely. It makes me feel so valued and appreciated as a customer.

I have again declined their offer of a premium membership trial. I'm not going to sign up until they start caring for their customers instead of ignoring them and/or fobbing them off with nonsensical excuses.

For the third time now, please can someone at BGA explain why hardback, a competitive game, has no ELO? Why remove ELO scoring from the competitive games? What is the point of that? You could easily have just forced all coop mode games into friendly mode only. Noone I've seen uses it other than for solo play anyway so I don't think anyone would have minded too much. But no, for some reason this competitive game is not allowed to be scored anymore?! Please explain why not. What abuse did you find in Hardback? What was so bad that it needed you to remove all ELO from it for?
Isn't Hardback listed as cooperative? Also, have you checked the Hardback forums?
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