Who programmed the dice?

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Gulchen
Posts: 160
Joined: 01 October 2017, 06:55

Re: Who programmed the dice?

Post by Gulchen »

From that game, I count

73 rolls total
first quarter ​ is ​ first 18
six 7s in the first 18 rolls
ten 7s in the remaining 55 rolls

.


The above gives 33%, rather than just 32%, for the first quarter.
Nonetheless, something at least that surprising should happen more than 1/6 of the time:

Code: Select all

   _       _ _(_)_     |  Documentation: https://docs.julialang.org
  (_)     | (_) (_)    |
   _ _   _| |_  __ _   |  Type "?" for help, "]?" for Pkg help.
  | | | | | | |/ _` |  |
  | | |_| | | | (_| |  |  Version 1.10.0 (2023-12-25)
 _/ |\__'_|_|_|\__'_|  |  Official https://julialang.org/ release
|__/                   |

julia> firstquarterhistogram = [binomial(BigInt(18),k)*(BigInt(5)^(BigInt(18)-k)) for k in BigInt(0):BigInt(18)];

julia> restofgamehistogram = [binomial(BigInt(55),k)*(BigInt(5)^(BigInt(55)-k)) for k in BigInt(0):BigInt(55)];

julia> threshold = firstquarterhistogram[1+6]*restofgamehistogram[1+10]
3767624601320462840448044516961090266704559326171875000

julia> sum(Int(firstquarterhistogram[1+j]*restofgamehistogram[1+k] == threshold) for j in 0:18 for k in 0:55)
1

julia> atleastassurprising = BigInt(0)
0

julia> for j in 0:18
               for k in 0:55
                       freq = firstquarterhistogram[1+j]*restofgamehistogram[1+k]
                       if freq <= threshold
                               atleastassurprising += freq
                       end
               end
       end

julia> sum(firstquarterhistogram[1+j]*restofgamehistogram[1+k] for j in 0:18 for k in 0:55) == BigInt(6)^BigInt(73)
true

julia> atleastassurprising/(BigInt(6)^BigInt(73))
0.169994153873939281438211853063463992876018220596280754624324915524080910904721

julia> typeof(atleastassurprising//(BigInt(6)^BigInt(73)))
Rational{BigInt}

julia> (BigInt(9))//(BigInt(53)) < atleastassurprising//(BigInt(6)^BigInt(73)) < (BigInt(8))//(BigInt(47))
true

julia> 
Gulchen
Posts: 160
Joined: 01 October 2017, 06:55

Re: Who programmed the dice?

Post by Gulchen »

On the other hand, I now see that
"Moderators have limited" Hammi335's "access. (forever)"
.

The closest thing I see to an explanation on that page is 5 dates and 5 ​ ​ ​ "behavior (guilty)"s ​ , ​ ​ ​ under ​ ​ ​ "Reports:" ​ .
When I click on those reports, I get ​ "Unexpected error: This report does not exist" ​ with some reference info that seems to be for BGA's internal use.

However, one of those 5 dates is ​ Dec 27th 2023 ​ - the day of Hammi335's most recent comment in this thread -
so I now believe the moderator limitation includes an inability to post in these forums.
User avatar
Cos-
Posts: 275
Joined: 28 August 2020, 22:51

Re: Who programmed the dice?

Post by Cos- »

nbiblues wrote: 19 January 2024, 17:55 Table # 464214138

Over the whole game we rolled 22% 7s vs it's supposed to be around 16-17% and in the first quarter of the game it was 32% which made it very frustrating. I'm seeing this more lately that about a quarter of my games are very 7 heavy.
Sounds just like how randomness works. Probably about a quarter of your games are rather light on 7's, also.
User avatar
Andune
Posts: 2
Joined: 13 April 2012, 14:09

Re: Who programmed the dice?

Post by Andune »

I just had a game with absolutely weird stats as well: https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=465794120
That does not seem random to me.
User avatar
Andune
Posts: 2
Joined: 13 April 2012, 14:09

Re: Who programmed the dice?

Post by Andune »

the next game I played had the same issue: https://boardgamearena.com/8/catan?table=465797638
User avatar
Mathew5000
Posts: 234
Joined: 02 January 2021, 01:41

Re: Who programmed the dice?

Post by Mathew5000 »

Andune wrote: 23 January 2024, 11:07 That does not seem random to me.
Why Randomness Doesn’t Feel Random
User avatar
euklid314
Posts: 311
Joined: 06 April 2020, 22:56

Re: Who programmed the dice?

Post by euklid314 »

Andune wrote: 23 January 2024, 11:07 I just had a game with absolutely weird stats as well: https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=465794120
That does not seem random to me.
Your game is an indication that the random function (which was written by professional mathematicians amd not BGA employees and is used in many applications) is indeed random. If such games would never happen then you should get suspicious. It is very likely that some number will be a heavy outlier and now and then a number is a HUGE outlier as in your game. Perfectly normal and to be expected.

If you claim that in ALL of your games the number 6 is always that overrepresented it would be a different issue...
BusterVA
Posts: 21
Joined: 29 March 2019, 17:30

Re: Who programmed the dice?

Post by BusterVA »

I am entirely convinced that the dice are not truly random. There are just too many situations that occur that statistically near impossible.

One example. Nearly every time I roll a 7 and rob someone, that person almost always then rolls a 7 immediately, robs me, and then no 7s for ages. This occurs so frequently that it is mind boggling.

Very often I experience games where no, or next to no, 8s are rolled. Happens incredibly often.

I also see runs, constantly, of good numbers for a single player resulting in that player (and yes sometimes me) winning with a shutout - 10-2-2. The numbers rolled are not always statistically common, but sometimes. Like a ton of 11's, or a ton of 3's. Just one after another. This happens often! So often that it can't really be explained as the dice are random and it happens.

I have seen MANY runs of the same number for like, 6+ rolls in a row. Yes it happens in real life, but the frequency of it happening in Catan is just excessive - beyond believable as being random.

Not saying the dice are "rigged" but I do believe that the random algo being used is heavily flawed.
User avatar
frogstar_A
Posts: 372
Joined: 30 April 2020, 00:41

Re: Who programmed the dice?

Post by frogstar_A »

Andune wrote: 23 January 2024, 11:07 I just had a game with absolutely weird stats as well: https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=465794120
That does not seem random to me.
Let me guess....what WOULD seem random to you is an almost perfect distribution of numbers according to their long run average every game, with 7 always the most common, then 6 and 8 etc?

Humans just can't cope with what true randomness really means.

At some point someone is going to play a game of Catan where no 7s are rolled at all in the game and they will just lose their minds over it, and yet that's what random is...random. over a large number of games every weird sequence will happen at some point whether that is all 7s or no 7s etc
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jota1983
Posts: 2
Joined: 07 January 2024, 00:14

Re: Who programmed the dice?

Post by jota1983 »

I think that the latest replies talking about what randomness is are explaining the issue quite well.

Even so I'd lile to add that I've made some dice rolling simulations and for a standard game with around 40-50 rolls is very difficult to achieve a normal distribution.

Actually with that amount of rolls, distributions with some numbers not being rolled at all or 6s, 7s and 8s not being the most frequent ones are more common than expected.
Percentages as mentioned in previous posts are expected for normal distributions for wich you will need much more rolls than you get in a normal game.

So yes, it can be frustrating, I've been there, but it seems that it's just how it's supposed to be.
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