Board Game Arena

deleted

Please read https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30804

I apologize l I will delete my post immediately.

cigma wrote: ↑07 January 2024, 12:52 Please read https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30804

Thanks for that link. I'd been thinking for a while about making a site suggestion that a notice about this should appear at the top of every forum like the rule against challenging a moderation.

Those rules are probably for limiting witch hunting (initiated by bad losers) and getting less drama and bad environment overall. But this dude 100% cheated; in ARENA! , and is in arena ranked under top 10 - and will stay there if not fixed by tomorrow. THIS IS A PROBLEM!

PS: (guess I should be happy not getting an competitive arena season .....)
PPS: Thank you Mitra, for pointing it out!!

cigma wrote: ↑07 January 2024, 12:52 [stuff]

just wanted to point out, that it is maybe not always the best thing to citate forum guidelines without checking the situation; just maybe? In case it is not the best guideline for an specific edge case. For example, this one being very severe, affecting arena, and being so mindblowingly, * obvious!


EDIT:
summarizing our chat with meeple here:
Meeple was saying:
Do not post names or table-links -> it is against policy -> there could be consequences, from mod side
I was saying:
this policy Should not always apply -> makes harder to talk about specific things/game, connected to cheaters + cripples competitive community
Here it shouldnt have had applied -> check before crying out, since mods moderate it if needed -- post factum, just a warning that in general such postings might have consequences, for poster, seems valid though

*Moderator edit: please refrain from swearing on BGA, this is a family-friendly platform.

silentProtest wrote: ↑07 January 2024, 22:56

cigma wrote: ↑07 January 2024, 12:52 [stuff]

just wanted to point out, that it is maybe not always the best thing to citate forum guidelines without checking the situation; just maybe? In case it is not the best guideline for an specific edge case. For example, this one being very severe, affecting arena, and being so mindblowingly, * obvious!

It doesn't matter what the situation is. Cheating claims against specific players have no place in the forums, regardless of how obvious the accuser thinks it is. Recently there was someone who 100% blatantly was cheating at Connect Four. It was so clear they weren't trying to hide it (allowing one account to make 4 in a row without ever attempting to block in dozens of games between the same accounts). I cautioned someone for pointing it out in the forums and *privately* submitted a report the way it's supposed to be done. That's what my recent post in the Suggestions forum that both accounts (not just the alternate account) should be banned was about. This was a confirmed (not because I say so, but because BGA banned the account) case of cheating for which a penalty was imposed, but the discussion about the specific player did not belong in the forum.

Cheating and boosting are problems. I'm pleased one of this player's alts was flagged and banned. But even people posting spurious claims have convinced *themselves* that the cheating was obvious, so a blanket ban is needed.

Meeplelowda wrote: ↑08 January 2024, 00:06

silentProtest wrote: ↑07 January 2024, 22:56

cigma wrote: ↑07 January 2024, 12:52 [stuff]

just wanted to point out, that it is maybe not always the best thing to citate forum guidelines without checking the situation; just maybe? In case it is not the best guideline for an specific edge case. For example, this one being very severe, affecting arena, and being so mindblowingly, * obvious!

It doesn't matter what the situation is. Cheating claims against specific players have no place in the forums, regardless of how obvious the accuser thinks it is. Recently there was someone who 100% blatantly was cheating at Connect Four. It was so clear they weren't trying to hide it (allowing one account to make 4 in a row without ever attempting to block in dozens of games between the same accounts). I cautioned someone for pointing it out in the forums and *privately* submitted a report the way it's supposed to be done. That's what my recent post in the Suggestions forum that both accounts (not just the alternate account) should be banned was about. This was a confirmed case of cheating for which a penalty was imposed, but the discussion about the specific player did not belong in the forum.

How about it affecting comtetitive play aka arena, which is a central feature of the site, which, in its turn, is also a paid service. Id argue, it devalues it just tinsie bit.
And you seem to argue that, because of that rule, it shouldnt be a part of a discussion on this forum? Not pointing out major problems, seems weird. And yes in this case it is connected to specific players, or at least specific tables!
workaround, to make the rules make more sense: Make a way to post anon. tables and make a marker for cheaters in an account, which should be less visable, and in elo/arena ranking, which should be visable even if the account gets deleted.

I do not care enough anymore to argue right or wrong. But it is a pity, that BGA is one of the very few services where one could play board games online, with such a game variaty, and that BGA is getting ever worse.

EDIT: also how * did you miss the top 10 arena part. also did you even watch the games?? the dude gives up a turn before winning - twice out of five times. and this restriction, not bein able to point this bizzare cases out, with effects to a ton of people, since they care about ranking and try hard to beat records, is beyond description dumb; made just worse by how it was made, and by how, most likely, it will be handeled.

*Moderator edit: please refrain from swearing on BGA, this is a family-friendly platform.

silentProtest wrote: ↑08 January 2024, 00:34 And you seem to argue that, because of that rule, it shouldnt be a part of a discussion on this forum? Not pointing out major problems, seems weird. And yes in this case it is connected to specific players, or at least specific tables!
workaround, to make the rules make more sense: Make a way to post anon. tables and make a marker for cheaters in an account, which should be less visable, and in elo/arena ranking, which should be visable even if the account gets deleted.

I do not care enough anymore to argue right or wrong. But it is a pity, that BGA is one of the very few services where one could play board games online, with such a game variaty, and that BGA is getting ever worse.

Discussing cheating in general, especially how to detect it, should absolutely be discussed. Pointing out bugs that are being exploited (like draw offers in certain games) can and should be publicly discussed. The bug that allowed someone to avoid losing by restarting their turn (so they could never be expelled) was discussed and actually led to a change in how the timer for expelling people is implemented. That was a good thing.

But you can't say "oh, it's ok to accuse specific people publicly of cheating this time because it's really clear" because most people making accusations think it's really clear (even if they are deluded in thinking so). And I gave you a specific example where I even agreed it was 100% clear the person was cheating and even submitted a report myself, so this is not do as I say, not as I do.

Meeplelowda wrote: ↑08 January 2024, 00:43

silentProtest wrote: ↑08 January 2024, 00:34 And you seem to argue that, because of that rule, it shouldnt be a part of a discussion on this forum? Not pointing out major problems, seems weird. And yes in this case it is connected to specific players, or at least specific tables!
workaround, to make the rules make more sense: Make a way to post anon. tables and make a marker for cheaters in an account, which should be less visable, and in elo/arena ranking, which should be visable even if the account gets deleted.

I do not care enough anymore to argue right or wrong. But it is a pity, that BGA is one of the very few services where one could play board games online, with such a game variaty, and that BGA is getting ever worse.

Discussing cheating in general, especially how to detect it, should absolutely be discussed. Pointing out bugs that are being exploited (like draw offers in certain games) can and should be publicly discussed. The bug that allowed someone to avoid losing by restarting their turn (so they could never be expelled) was discussed and actually led to a change in how the timer for expelling people is implemented. That was a good thing.

But you can't say "oh, it's ok to accuse specific people publicly of cheating this time because it's really clear" because most people making accusations think it's really clear (even if they are deluded in thinking so). And I gave you a specific example where I even agreed it was 100% clear the person was cheating and even submitted a report myself, so this is not do as I say, not as I do.

Im actually baffled how you are missing my point. And I prepared this, because it is no use anyways:
"actually, just * that - have fun in the dumbster fire of your making.

PS: just for that sentence is the spelling by design."

But you seem to be decent and trying to be helpful. Very brief and on point, the problem:
- sometime it is needed to post game links, to tables, to discuss specific issues connected to someone cheating; doesnt even matter who it was, for this point at least. It is about the specifics in game, or cheating methods.
-> this still leads to implicitly pointing out players
- sometime it is also needed to point out WHO is cheating, for sakes of avoiding them IF mods do not act on it,
OR if it is someone central to ranking, which does affect more than just the players, that had that one or two games with that cheater

my point: it is both in this case. And neither me nor OP can even show that, because of that rule. Even with 20 games played it is as clear, as that "4 in a row" example.

Bonus point: it happened that such people "won" a season, and got their spotlight for a season, even after a ban.
The system we have on BGA scales really bad with player base. And not letting players, in specific cases, talk about it, with needed details, is counter productive; That said, I also think the general rule makes sense, just by knowing how people are - the blind forcing of the rule here, for which I called you both out, Meeple and cigma, without cheking the issue, was, imo, just bad for all, but the cheater.

*Moderator edit: please refrain from swearing on BGA, this is a family-friendly platform.