gender forms?

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qwertasdfg
Posts: 297
Joined: 17 June 2013, 18:26

gender forms?

Post by qwertasdfg »

What is the guideline to using male/female genderforms?

I ask because one user changed all the German texts to "political correct" gender sensitive ones, that are now nearly unreadable (at least in my opinion), I don't know if anyone would be offended if there are only male/only female forms? Or should we stick to the official rules for the games? In them it is mostly only the male forms.
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Een
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Joined: 16 June 2010, 19:52

Re: gender forms?

Post by Een »

Hello,

We don't have an official guideline on this. Our recommendation is to use the same forms as is mostly often done in the language in the gaming world (rules, tutorials, etc.), so that BGA feels 'as usual'.

If I understand correctly, the texts have been changed by just one user. This feels a little wrong as he should have asked the German community on the forum before starting such a big change. I suggest that you ask him by private message the reasons for the change and/or launch a forum thread in German to adress the subject, as this should be a concensus of the German speaking players.

Cheers,
Een
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pablo74
Posts: 25
Joined: 21 November 2011, 18:15

Re: gender forms?

Post by pablo74 »

hi all,

the new gender translations like Gute*r Spieler*in is in my opinion a bad compromise, since it is hard to read and will also discourage not so geeky people from being a part of BGA.

Either we should use:
- brackets like Gute(r) Spieler(in) (which also not so nice, but more readable as the *-spelling)
- use a mixture of both genders; in some translations Guter Spieler and in other translations Gute Spielerin (wich is in publications very common)
- or we go back to the old version: Guter Spieler, which is the most common case
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Anansi
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Joined: 06 June 2011, 13:14

Re: gender forms?

Post by Anansi »

Hi fellow translators,
I was asked about the reason for my changing of the gender forms in the German translation.
My main idea at the beginning was that I thought the direct adress of users (I will call them player_name-strings) should be gender specific as before it was
"Lisa zieht eine Karte auf seine Hand" = "Lisa draws a card to his hand"

After scanning the German translations, it occurred to me that they were inconsistent. Some had only the male form, some the male and female forms separated by a "/".
So I was thinking about a readable compromise, which was consistent throughout all translations and since using the male form in general felt a little outdated with regards a modern boardgaming community for me, I used the following scheme

1) Every noun was used in a gendered way with a "*" separating the male and female forms like Spieler*in which is almost a standard gendering nowadays
2) To improve readability articles, adjectives and relative pronouns were only used in the female form while possessive pronouns were used in the "female/male"-notation to have the gendering of the direct adresses above (e.g. "Jede gute Spieler*in, die drei Karten auf ihrer/seiner Hand hat, zieht drei weitere."). Also the plural were used as if the words were female.

This avoids the general clunkiness of the usual gendering in German like "Jede/r gute Spieler/in, die/der drei Karten auf ihrer/seiner Hand hat, ..." and gives a consistent, gender sensitive and (in my opinion) readable translation for every string.
The only thing that people have to get used to is the "*"-gendering of nouns.

Regarding pablo74's propositions I think that the bracket-solution would make the text much more unreadable, the mixture-solution would not solve the gendering of the player_name-strings and would definitely cause some confusion.
I am personally not against using the male form in general strings like "Bester Spieler" instead of "Beste Spieler*in" but I think player_name-strings should be regarding the user's gender.

So obviously I'm still in favour of my solution described above, but if there's a large number of people opposed to it I would assist in changing the translation to a favored form, but I would strongly encourage to find a consensus on the translation of player_name-strings.

Best regards
Roland
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pablo74
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Joined: 21 November 2011, 18:15

Re: gender forms?

Post by pablo74 »

hello Roland,

thank you for your thoughts. I like your arguments and agree with them. The only thing which confuses me a little is the usage of * as separation character.
Words including a * are often used in spam messages or in insulting comments to allow the usage of bad language. Maybe it is enough to replace
* by another character. But if nobody else has such a negative association with the new notation then I will get used to it.
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Anansi
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Joined: 06 June 2011, 13:14

Re: gender forms?

Post by Anansi »

Well, these are the genderings known to me:

Spieler/in
Spieler(in)
Spieler_in
Spieler*in

Personally, I'd prefer one of the last two.

Another thing to be debated would be the possessive pronouns. Should they be "female/male" only in player_name-strings or in all other strings, too?
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yzemaze
Posts: 37
Joined: 23 May 2011, 12:49

Re: gender forms?

Post by yzemaze »

I'm all for gender equality but with an asterisk? It just looks ugly as hell. If it's important just go the whole way: use female forms only :) This avoids bs like "Expert*innen" which rather should be Expert*inn*en btw (Experten = male, Expertinnen = female) and inconsistency [search for "expert" and look for yourself].

I'd have preferred a discussion before the fact.

PS: I've switched to EN and will stick to it as long as the translations are insane mumbo-jumbo.
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Anansi
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Re: gender forms?

Post by Anansi »

As I said before, I got no personal affection for the asterisk-notation. But it seems to be consensus that some sort of gender equality should be applied.

For me it is the most important part that the player_name-strings have a gender differentiation in the form of "ihre/seine Karten" (at least as long as there aren't different player_name-strings depending on the user's gender).

With all other strings I'm willing to help implementing the form of choice but so far there haven't been any constructive suggestions which would be the preferred form. So I'm presenting 2 options which appear reasonable to me and invite you to discuss these or present your preferred options. I hope that we'll reach an agreement about which one to consistently implement in all translations:

Option 1: Player_name-strings have the "ihre/seine"-differentiation, all other strings use the male form of nouns only

Option 2: Player_name-strings have the "ihre/seine"-differentiation, all other strings use a gendered form of nouns which for the purposes of grammar is considered to be female

If option 2 should be preferred by a majority, what should the gendered form of nouns look like?

a) Spieler*in
b) SpielerIn
c) Spieler_in
d) Spieler/in
e) Spieler(in)

My vote goes to option 2 with gendering a), b) or c).
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yzemaze
Posts: 37
Joined: 23 May 2011, 12:49

Re: gender forms?

Post by yzemaze »

Well, if you'd like to stick to the (non-existent) BGA guideline
Een wrote:We don't have an official guideline on this. Our recommendation is to use the same forms as is mostly often done in the language in the gaming world (rules, tutorials, etc.), so that BGA feels 'as usual'.
revert everything and use male forms only. If that's not up your alley use female forms only as more and more rulebooks tend to do. Text should always be easy to read/comprehend - using mixed forms just isn't. Especially when it's not done properly.

My preferences:
If male only isn't an option I'd use female only. As a last resort I wouldn't mind Option 2 as long as a commonly used form (b, d or e) is used.
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Anansi
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Re: gender forms?

Post by Anansi »

Thanks for your comment, yzemaze. For further clarification what do you think about what I called player_name-strings?

Using only one-gender forms there would e.g. give

"{player_name} wirft alle seine Handkarten ab."

thus result in

"Uwe wirft alle seine Handkarten ab."

and

"Lisa wirft alle seine Handkarten ab."

Would the form

"{player_name} wirft alle ihre/seine Handkarten ab."

be preferable to this in your opinion?
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