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Update of the list of conventions

Posted: 28 October 2024, 20:57
by Blacktango
Hello, many players ask what means the conventions listed as an option when creating a new Hanabi table mean.
(Here is the related suggestion ticket.)

I think there are two problems with the original list:
- the list is too long and therefore not relevant for the vast majority of the players
- a short description of each convention would help to choose one

I have drastically cleaned up the list. Here is the new one, for now:
- Unspecified
- Finesse
- Layered finesse
- Hyphen-ated
- Other (description: "You can specify it in the presentation field of the table")

I need your help/opinion on this.

1. Do you think this list is OK, or what would you change about it?
2. What description would you add to each entry in the list?

The description only appears to the table creator, like this:
Image

Re: Update of the list of conventions

Posted: 28 October 2024, 21:36
by Romain672
Hyphen-ated which is a pseudo asked to not use his name for that, and so that was renamed to 'hgroup'. So would be nice if it was 'H-group' instead.

H-group did something which is to separate conventions into levels 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10/11/12/13/14/15/16/17/18/19/20/21/22/23/24/25/max which work extremely well since that tell exactly what conventions did you learn.

I think another thing missing is the bluff, which should be included into the finesse. But just changing 'finesse' into 'finesse & bluff' look confusing. If you do that, i think you would want to add bluff too in layered finesse, and overall that look worst. So I think keeping those two like that are best.

Another thing missing is the 2-saves, but that look fine to me to not specify it.

So I like the actual proposition.


About the description:
- Unspecified (no description)
- Finesse: "Include bluffs, self and reverse finesse. Color=play leftmost new introduced / Number which can be a save = save cards touched"
- Layered finesse: "Priority of finesses in second position when first position is playable over single bluff"
- H-group: "Set of traditionnal conventions which goes much deeper in meaning"
- Other: "You can specify it in the presentation field of the table"

Re: Update of the list of conventions

Posted: 28 October 2024, 22:03
by Blacktango
Ok for the Hgroup.

I was thinking of adding "Finesse & Bluff" between "Finesse" and "Layered Finesse", because Finesse might regroup too many players.
I think it might be useful at expert level, if you haven't established yourself as a master yet, but you really want to bluff at your tables.

About the descriptions, since only the table creator can see them, I don't think they need to be very precise, especially for the "Finesse".
If I create a table and see that it includes the self finesse, I will expect the other players to know self finesse, even if they didn't see that it was expected for the table.

Re: Update of the list of conventions

Posted: 29 October 2024, 02:07
by Romain672
I put that 'long' description because there is no mention that you are playing with bga's basic conventions. You would want to put 'bga's basic conventions & finesses & bluffs' to be complete, but that's way too long imo.

I know that beri who plays 'logical leftism' which is a playstyle with 'weird' finesse, not the basic bga's convention, would need to be adressed. If you keep the name as proposed, then it look like logical leftism should play with 'finesses', but that not what should be done.
You could count of the players to not play with 'finesse' if you are playing a 'rare' convention set, and it's a totally fair point.

And then we got a new player which create their hanabi table after 5 or 10 games, saw the 'finesse' convention set, and read the description.


For both of those points I prefer my description.

Re: Update of the list of conventions

Posted: 29 October 2024, 03:13
by Silene
I think it would be good to get rid of the option alltogether.

It's impossible to include everyone and have everyone agree on what each setting means. There are too many nuances.

But if you go ahead with it, i think there should be an option for beginners (other than unspecified). Something like "i don't know any conventions, let's find out together"

Re: Update of the list of conventions

Posted: 29 October 2024, 20:26
by Sammy McSam
My suggestion:
- Unspecified / other | Specify below
- Logical leftism | No conventions, just logic
- Prompt | Color = play leftmost, number on chop card = save
- Finesse | Reverse finesse, self finesse, long finesse, bluff, finesse bluff, double bluff(?), trash bluff(?)..
- Layered finesse | Finesse with unrelated playable card(s) in front
- Hgroup | Comprehensive, level-based convention set

- Options in order of increasing convention complexity helps.
- I think 'unspecified' & 'other' can be grouped because with an empty presentation field, other = unspecified.
- Without wanting to make the list too long, I think a 'beginner' option without blind-plays called 'prompt' would be useful and help bridge the gap between 'no convention' and all types of blind-plays.
- Maybe rename Finesse description to just 'Finesses & bluffs'?
- Where the simplified descriptions are insufficient, perhaps some kind of link to the wiki help page with definitions?

Re: Update of the list of conventions

Posted: 31 October 2024, 05:42
by Travis Hall
There are way to many fiddly little techniques to hope for this setting to cover them all precisely, but I think the setting is useful to define very broadly what the table creator expects.

It should remain possible not to set this at all, and the default should remain nothing, as it is currently. I think that’s an important indicator concerning whether the table creator has thought about conventions at all. It would be very bad to default to Finesse and have a heap of below-expert players starting Finesse games without knowing what Finesse is.

I don’t know whether any non-finesse conventions get any play on BGA. There’s possibly a few who still use Logical Leftism. Hat-guessing? I have no idea.

As far as I can tell, very few players try to use finesses without bluffs. I doubt “Finesse and Bluff” would add anything useful. If we were going to have more fine-grained levels for those still learning the basics, we should be aware that there are a fair few players who are unaware of long finesses. Likewise for promises. Chop-focus? Trash bluff? Double bluff? Nah, just calling it Finesse is probably as good as we can get there.

Now, Layered Finesse is a bit different. That was a major leap forward in strategy on BGA, and learning it is significantly harder than going from bluff to finesse. It shifts the way we play, such that coordinating on layered or not-layered is important. (If I note during play that a player misfires cards used as a bluff target, I can stop using their cards as bluff targets and still bluff using other hands. I can’t do similar with layered; either everyone needs to be using it, or nobody.)

If you wanted a level beyond Layered Finesse, you might add Patched Layered Finesse. But I wouldn’t even use that myself, as I don’t think it would improve anybody’s outcomes.

Adding a Prompt convention for those not used to finesse yet might be helpful. I don’t know; I have basically no contact with players at that level of skill.

Adding Hgroup makes sense. Anybody using it will have to specify what level in the description or chat, of course.

And having an Other setting with the expectation that details will be in the description or chat makes sense too.

Re: Update of the list of conventions

Posted: 02 November 2024, 15:24
by HanabiGrandMaster
First a bit of history as I remember it:
The classic conventions were based on the most "polarizing" discussions in 2014 - 2016:

a) Chaining or no chaining?
b) Where lies the focus of a clue?
c) How to deal with double discards?

When new players actually started to worry about a convention; they quickly adopted "Standard"
- Colour to play (newest);
- Number to save;
- Discard from oldest position.
(- For good measure, more advanced players added the "good touch" rule later.)

Most new players would apply a chaining rule: If multiple cards are marked by a colour-clue, then they would keep playing all the marked cards. Since it is most common for clues marking multiple cards happens in the early game, it was easy to see that chaining was not viable. For 1s, there is only a 2/7 chance that the next red card is actually a 2; and for 2s there's only a 2/5 chance that the next card is a 3. (Don't design for niche situations.) In addition it is too expensive (clue-tokens) to make a player stop playing by giving another clue.

Then you had "Conventional Leftism"
It allowed for finesses, but the focus of the clue was always on the left-most logical card.

Code: Select all

(EXAMPLE)
Discard: r2, g1, g2
Played: r1, y1, g1, b0, w0.

Alice: (new) g4, y4, w3, y4  , r(2) (old) -- r2 is "saved" and marked as 2.
Bob:   (new) r4, r3, y2, b(1), w(5) (old) -- b1 and w5 are "saved" and marked with a number-clue
Cathy: (new) y5, w2, r1, g1  , b1   (old)

Alice discards y4, and draws r5.
Bob plays b1, and draws b1.
Cathy clues red to Alice.

Discard: r2, g1, g2, y4
Played: r1, y1, g1, b1, w0.

Alice: (new) (r)5, g4, y4, w3, r(2) (old) -- r2 is "saved" and marked as 2.
Bob:   (new)   b1, r4, r3, y2, w(5) (old) -- w5 is "saved" and marked as 5.
Cathy: (new)   y5, w2, r1, g1, b1   (old)
In Conventional Leftism, the focus of the red-clue would be on r2. Hence Alice would interpret: play r2, and save other red.
In Finesse convention, the focus of the red-clue would be on r5. Hence Alice would interpret: play r3 after playing r2.

Beri (https://boardgamearena.com/player?id=4560436) was, at the time, a large advocate of the "Logical Leftism", because he despised the CL interpretation. He was right in that such an interpretation is inferior. Simple example: it's 2x more likely to draw r3 than r5, so the Finesse interpretation would be more common (don't design for niche situations). In addition, when r3 isn't visible, there is no need to "rush" the r2, so a token is best used for something more useful.

In addition he advocated the saving of non-unique cards (which as revolutionary at the time). However, Beri's Logical Leftism violated "good touch", so was never accepted, and rarely lead to perfect games (making people think that saving non-uniques was too expensive on the tokens, instead of blaming it on "good touch").

Since Beri isn't playing Hanabi anymore, I think no-one plays it. CL is still played by a lot of players, especially those who only play 2-player games. In such games a "full hand" is something players worry about, so they rush cards more easily. Unfortunately I played with 5 players today who still interpret "finesse" as "CL" (extremely frustrating to me).

"Finesse" convention was the most common way to play:
- "Good Touch"
- Number-clue on CHOP always mean "save"
- All other clues mean play (focus on newest unmarked)
- Assume CHOP is safe to discard
- Clues are given by the last possible player (no skipping)

There was no promise of bluffing only with 1-aways; and no layered. "Layered finesses", at the time, was considered the return of chaining and the arguments hadn't changed: don't design for niche situations, and layered also destroys some of the information promised by (regular) finesse convention (in particular the ability to bluff). Ben Small was a large advocate of that playstyle (still has it in his profile description), and because of this he became a bit of a paria in the BGA community. He even had to make several accounts at the time, because he was constantly blocked from chatting / posting. He still has two active accounts at the moment:
https://boardgamearena.com/player?id=81694356
https://boardgamearena.com/player?id=84363613

Postmans (https://boardgamearena.com/player?id=84315928) had made an attempt at describing the most common wat to play in this Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sz3 ... 8fl7o62h8c

AenarionJD (https://boardgamearena.com/player?id=83880676) introduced the "JD convention" (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5288) where a colour-clue would be used to tell you which card to play (red = position 1; yellow = position 2; green = position 3, etc.) and numbers would tell you which card to play in reversed order (1 = position 5; 2 = position 4, etc.) and white/5-clues would mean something special.

Remember, at the time flamboyants weren't invented yet. So it was considered much harder to get perfect score. And for advanced players the most common way to lose, was by a double discard. In 2-player games, the rule to save 2s and not to double discard was quickly adopted. But in 3-(or-more)-player games there was still debate going on. Some people wanted the avoid-double-discard-rule, but most people had difficulties recognizing the forced clue. And a lot of people had swiss cheese memory, so forgot that their CHOP couldn't be a copy of the just discarded card. So eventually it was settled that, since there's always a player who can see the danger, that player can give the save clue. Hence, number-clues on CHOP are always considered "save it" (because it's given by the last possible player), and not as a finesse (even when a there's no double discard situation).

After this bit of history, I would like to endorse and ammend to Sammy McSam's and Silene's post:
- Other (don't call it unspecified please)
- Beginner (meant for apprentices) | No chaining, Colour-focus on newest; Number-focus on oldest; Double discarding allowed; Good touch optional; saving non-uniques allowed
- Finesse (most played historically) | No chaining, Number-focus on CHOP; all other focus on newest; Double discarding allowed; Good touch required; saving non-uniques allowed
- Conventional Leftism (most played historically) | No chaining, Focus on logical card; Double discarding allowed; Good touch required; saving non-uniques disallowed
- Layered finesse (relatively new) | Chaining, Focus on newest card; Double discarding allowed; Good touch required; saving non-uniques disallowed
- Hgroup (blown over from the-site-that-shall-not-be-named) | Too convoluted for me.

Unfortunately, I've noticed that most players "play however they find it the most fun", and will refuse to play the convention that the table is set to (playing finesse in beginner tables, playing CL at finesse tables, etc.) But, at least this way we give players the option to set the table to whichever they like - fixing players.... well....

Re: Update of the list of conventions

Posted: 08 November 2024, 18:29
by Blacktango
Hi, and thanks for sharing.

Here are some statistics about the options used in the games of the 30 last days :

~113030 games played

Image

Please note that the convention statistics are slightly skewed as the list changed 10 days ago, and some conventions are no longer available.

We can see that:
- 76% of the games are played with 2 players
- 75% of the games set the convention to Standard (= untouched option field)
- 24% of the games set the convention to Finesse

We still have 1% including with 6XX Hat-guessing games, 3XX Logical Leftism games and 2XX Chop-focus games.

---

Looking at the statistics, I can see that:
- the vast majority of players don't bother to specify the convention
- with the exception of finesse, historical conventions are virtually unused.

There may be three reasons for this:
- the majority of players really don't care (which is relevant for 2 players games)
- the historical list is too complicated for most players (and is therefore not used)
- only players who use a special convention need the convention list.

So where do we go from here?
Simplify the list to make it more user-friendly?
Add more options to it, to reach all players who use special conventions?

The missing information is
- How many players don't use the list of conventions because it's too complex?
- How many players who use the finesse option would like to have more choice?

Re: Update of the list of conventions

Posted: 08 November 2024, 19:43
by Blacktango
Here is my new proposal:

- Unspecified
- Basic | color clue = play leftmost, number clue on chop card = save
- Finesse | clue to make play the matching missing card(s)
- Finesse & bluffs | blind play a card unmatching the clue
- Layered finesse | finesse with extra playable card(s) in front
- H-group | You should specify the level of the set below
- Other | You should specify it below

In my opinion, making Other the default option is really weird, so I prefer having two Unspecified + Other.
Unspecified and Other won't be displayed on the table list (but the table description will if there is any).

It is very difficult to explain a convention briefly (and well translated!), and the description can't be a link, so it should be just what you need to be able to choose between the options.
Anyway, no need to explain it too deeply because by playing basic, you'll end up meeting finesse, by finesse you'll end up meeting the bluffs, and so the layered.

Maybe as Unspecified description, we could set "More details on conventions on the wiki page", but it could be annoying for people who really don't care.

I think that with this list, you can reach some specific players like:
- unspecified -> beginners/apprentice
- basic -> medium/good players
- finesse -> good/strong players
- finesse & bluff -> strong players/expert/master
- layered finesse -> master

With the "finesse & bluff" option, I could open up my tables to strong players, which I'm not doing currently because there are too many of them who will bomb a card marked with a bluff clue (because they don't know bluff). Or I could join a "finesse & bluff" table hosted by a strong player.

As for all the deleted options, I think they were only used by experienced players, who are more likely to know how to ask for them to be reinstated (by forum, bug report, etc.).