Board Game Arena

I'm not posting this here to encourage any action on this site specifically,, but rather, because I assume I'm not the only one who also plays at home on the board. So I mention it as a possible house rule if you want to fix the OP nature of them without removing them from the deck.

This is one of the most hotly debated topics on the game (always comes up on reddit for instance) and yet I've never heard of this solution. What if Ravens just got 2 food from the feeder and the gull/kildeer got 2 from the deck?

The Raven part of that, I believe, would do away with the part that just seems to be piling on. Not only do you get to gain eggs and food at the same time, you get to gain precisely the food you want. What's more, if you're in a 2 person game, you can stick your opponent with always having to be the one to take food they don't want in order to get the feeder to a place where it can be reset.

That last bit is not insignificant as I sometimes find myself in a game of chicken with my opponent when there are 3 single foods in the feeder that neither of us apparently wants. So you find other things to do in order not to.be the one who takes 2 of them and allow the other a free reset. Eventually, someone has to blink. With the raven as it stands, only one player has to worry about that.

Lastly, it would narrow the gap between them and crows if crows were still able to choose their food. Sure you just get 1 food, but at least you can get what you want.

Unless you have a tuck and draw bird paired with your gull/killdeer, the draw from the deck change would mean that you might have to draw birds the normal way if you saw something in the tray that you liked.

At home we don't remove anything, but we play with all expantions. With nearly 400 cards you won't see one of the big four very often.
And there are a lot of other bigger birds in game. My little brother created a tucking engine with european birds. And won that round by tucking nearly 80 birds.....
Homerules are not accepted on BGA and we won't get any expantion here. In this case I'm very happy about removing the big five on Arena.

Lisette Baum wrote: ↑04 January 2025, 20:31 At home we don't remove anything, but we play with all expantions. With nearly 400 cards you won't see one of the big four very often.
And there are a lot of other bigger birds in game. My little brother created a tucking engine with european birds. And won that round by tucking nearly 80 birds.....
Homerules are not accepted on BGA and we won't get any expantion here. In this case I'm very happy about removing the big five on Arena.

yeah EE really made tucking engines explode. The reddit wingspan forum is littered with people sharing them. It's funny though. Someone will share one "I tucked 75 birds!" "What was your score?" "85". So they ended up with a decent-but-not-good score.

For the ravens, just make them worth zero points at the end of the game, rather than 4 and 5. That's a gentle solution.

For the Killdeer/Gull, just assume they have no egg slots. Part of the reason they are powerful is that they can use their own egg to trigger the ability, so just remove that option.

laggercat wrote: ↑05 January 2025, 07:18 For the ravens, just make them worth zero points at the end of the game, rather than 4 and 5. That's a gentle solution.

For the Killdeer/Gull, just assume they have no egg slots. Part of the reason they are powerful is that they can use their own egg to trigger the ability, so just remove that option.

I don't think that nerfs the ravens enough. As it is, they're a 3 food bird that's worth about as few VP as any other 3 food bird, so that's already something that you accept as a downside because of their awesome brown power. Because I play mostly arena, where scores are lower than normal due to the removal of the 5 best birds, my average score hovers around 90. On the other hand, if I play a game where I get a raven early, I find it to be wasted opportunity if I don't score well over 100. Like, at least 105 but I'm not even thrilled with that. So, I'd gladly sacrifice the 4-5 pts.

All that said, I also don't know if my suggestion nerfs them enough, so...

The card bird solution is intriguing. Not only does it slow you down early, in base set games where spamming eggs late is often the best way to go, you can get pretty hosed if you don't have enough space to max it out.

detlefchef11 wrote: ↑04 January 2025, 18:53 This is one of the most hotly debated topics on the game (always comes up on reddit for instance) and yet I've never heard of this solution. What if Ravens just got 2 food from the feeder and the gull/kildeer got 2 from the deck?

Ravens getting 2 food from the feeder is how we play at home, and I believe I've said this on both reddit and on this BGA forum in the past. It's definitely an idea that's out there.

gull/killdeer from the deck seems reasonable, but I don't think they're too powerful (I know a lot of people disagree) so I don't know if we'll do that at home. Have thought about it before.

The feeder version for the ravens targets the right part of the power. What makes those birds strong is that they turn an egg into exactly the two foods a player needs, without spending an action on food. Taking from the feeder keeps the conversion but adds the constraint the rest of the game imposes, and in two player games it also limits the forcing play described above. For the gull and killdeer, drawing from the deck rather than the tray works on the same principle: the card advantage stays, but the choice disappears.
For anyone who likes this kind of structured problem-solving outside games too, there are case interview practice resources here: https://protocol-club.com

For those wondering for a serious answer, the rational solution to the big four already exists. You can just remove them from the deck and the problem is solved.

One way to consider if your proposed nerf works is to ask yourself: if I got a raven in my opening hand, is there a world where I'd just pass it and not keep it? Mind you, I am talking about objectively considering the power of the card WITH the proposed nerf, and truthfully speaking I don't see a scenario where you'd pass on it. Every bird that provides food early on is a blessing and the raven has no equivalent in that department. Even if you are picking food from the feeder, you are still picking 2 food and laying an egg as early as your 3rd-4th action. The regular way of acquiring food early is to pick 1 or 2 at a cost from the feeder and possibly activate a wonky brown power in that row. Between these 2 I know what I will choose to do 100% of the time. And that's not even considering the mid-to-late power of acquiring food from your second row.