first clue in 2 player

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Stroom
Posts: 428
Joined: 14 July 2016, 19:10

Re: first clue in 2 player

Post by Stroom »

Silene wrote: 10 December 2021, 21:13 On a sidenote I don't agree to your "always clue 2s first"-approach because that's slowing down play (but you call it "kickstarting" the game) and potentially wasting clues when the other player has to wait. But on the other hand I do chop-2-saves in 2p game so those don't mean play left.
Of course everything depends on the hand. In most cases, if you can not say 1-2 then you usually do 2-1. Sometimes you can also clue 1 and then let the other player play 1s and later give 2 when 2 is on chop. Maybe you can color clue to play later, whatever. But then you might have to let the 2 go if a double discard threat happens.
Silene wrote: 10 December 2021, 21:13 So overall we just play different convention and decide to "waste" our clues in a different way :D. I think we can leave it with that. We won't find an answer for what convention is better through discussing it here.
From my experience, I waste clues a lot less than other players. And this is often what makes the end game much easier.
Silene wrote: 10 December 2021, 21:13 ... then in my opinion (and some other's who posted here), it is better to start with color-clue in the original example.
So which clue is better depends on the set of conventions you play.
Well, statistically as we saw, 1-2 or 1-red marks 2 clues while being less susceptible to a new card ruining the 2nd clue. While red-green-2 would use 2 clues and if the other player draws green/multi, you can't use green so you have to use red-1-2 which is still 1 clue more. At the same time, 1-red does pretty much the same thing at one less clue.
Stroom
Posts: 428
Joined: 14 July 2016, 19:10

Re: first clue in 2 player

Post by Stroom »

Partner:Image
Me:Image

Red-green:
M: Red clue
P: Play red. (30% chance that the card drawn is green/multi so the next green clue could be misinterpreted)
M: Green clue
P: Play G1 (let's not go into how that multi can be 1 or whatever)
M: 2 clue
P: yellow clue (to mark multi 1 and 5)
M: Play M1
P: Play R2
4 clues, M3 marked. 30% risk of 2nd clue not usable, have to use 1.

1-2
M: 1 clue
P: Play G1 (playing 1s from the right is better as those are more likely unique/important)
M: 2 clue
P: Play R1
M: Discard B4
P: Yellow clue
M: Play M1
P: Play R2
3 clues, M3 not marked. No risk.

1-red
M: 1 clue
P: Play G1
M: Red clue
P: Play R1
M: Yellow clue
M: Play M1
P: Play R2
3 clues, M3 marked. No risk


Partner:Image
Me:Image
Not going to comment this in-depth as there are uneven hands. Either way, here is the risk of losing both Y3 and it is more probable with red-green as it marks multi 3 and you want to let the other player lose B2 before cluing 2... but then you might both discard Y3 at the same time, causing you to lose G2.

Partner:Image
Me:Image

Red-green
M: Red clue
P: 1 clue
M: Green clue
P: 2 clue
M: Play G1
P: Play R1
M: Play W1
P: Discard G1
M: Play W2
P: 3 clue
M: 2 clue
P: Play R2
M: Play W3
6 clues. M3 marked.

1-2
M: 1 clue
P: 1 clue
M: 2 clue
P: 2 clue
M: Play G1
P: Bomb G1
M: Play W1
P: Play R1
M: Play W2
P: 3 clue
M: Play W3
P: Play R2
5 clues. M3 not marked. 1 bomb
P could also play 1 -> W -> ... -> 4 to tell me that play 1s, then after left 2 is played 4 clue to play leftmost white and then the 4. Won't prevent the bomb but will probably help clue the 4 as extra.

1-red
M: 1 clue
P: 1 clue
M: Red clue
P: 2 clue
M: Play G1
P: Bomb G1
M: Play W1
P: Play R1
M: Play W2
P: White clue
M: Play W3
P: Play R2
5 clues. M3 marked. 1 bomb
Stroom
Posts: 428
Joined: 14 July 2016, 19:10

Re: first clue in 2 player

Post by Stroom »

Partner:Image
Me:Image

Red-green:
M: Red clue
P: 1 clue
M: Green clue
P: Play R1
M: 2 clue
P: Play R2
M: Play G1
P: 5 clue
M: Discard G4
P: 4 clue
M: Discard B3
P: Discard G1
OR:
M: Red clue
P: Play R1
M: Green clue
P: Play G1
M: 2 clue
P: Play R2
M: Discard G4
P: 5 clue
M: Discard G1
P: 4 clue
M: Discard B3
6/5 clues, M3 marked

1-2
M: 1 clue
P: Play G1
M: 2 clue
P: Play R1
M: Discard G4
P: 5 clue
M: Discard G1
P: 4 clue
M: Discard B3
P: Play R2
4 clues, M3 not marked.

1-red
M: 1 clue
P: Play G1
M: Red clue
P: Play R1
M: Discard G4
P: 5 clue
M: Discard G1
P: 4 clue
M: Discard B3
P: Play R2/Red clue (to save the red 3 on chop.. depends on what other cards I have drawn...)
4 clues, M3 marked.

Partner:Image
Me:Image

Red-green
M: Red clue
P: 1 clue
M: Green clue
P: Play G1
M: Play Y1
P: Discard R1
M: Play R1
P: Discard Y3
M: Play M1
P: Discard W4
M: 2 clue
P: Play R2
OR
M: Red clue
P: Yellow clue
M: Green clue
P: Play R1
M: Play M1
P: Play G1
M: 2 clue
P: Play R2
M: Discard W3
P: pointless clue
M: Discard R1
P: 1 clue
M: Play Y1
4/5 clues, M3 marked

1-2
M: 1 clue
P: Play G1
M: 2 clue
P: Play R1
M: Discard W3
P: Yellow clue
M: Play M1
P: Play R2
M: Discard R1
P: 1 clue
M: Play Y1
4 clues, M3 not marked, 2-3 moves less.

1-red
M: 1 clue
P: Play G1
M: Red clue
P: 1 clue
M: Play Y1
P: Discard R1
M: Play R1
P: Play R2
M: Play M1
3 clues, M3 marked. 3-4 moves less

Partner:Image
Me:Image

Red-green
M: Red clue
P: 1 clue
M: Green clue
P: Play R1
M: Play G1
P: Discard G1
M: 2 clue
P: Play R2
M: Play B1
P: 3 clue
M: Play R3 (It is on chop so about to be discarded but it can't be unique so most likely saved for immediate play.)
5 clues, both players have marked M3

1-2
M: 1 clue
P: 1 clue
M: 2 clue
P: Play G1
M: Bomb G1
P: Play R1
M: Play Y1
P: Play R2
M: Play B1
P: 3 clue
M: Play R3
4 clues, one player has marked M3

1-red
M: 1 clue
P: 1 clue
M: Red clue
P: Play G1
M: Bomb G1
P: Play R1
M: Play Y1
P: Play R2
M: Play B1
P: 3 clue
M: Play R3
4 clues, both players have marked M3
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Travis Hall
Posts: 213
Joined: 12 April 2020, 14:13

Re: first clue in 2 player

Post by Travis Hall »

I’m not an expert on 2-player (as I almost exclusively play 3+) but…

You two seem to be debating 1-2 vs red-green, but it seems to me that 1-red is possibly better than red-green. If you’re interested in saving 3m, you still get that, and it’s still two clues for three plays. A poor draw could block the extra save of 3m, but only a 2m draw can block cluing 2r.

The real advantage of red-green is allowing player 2 to clue 1s immediately, but you don’t actually want player 2 to clue 1s immediately. If you have a 1 on chop, player 2 would have to either clue by colour (not necessarily cluing that 1, just a 1) or risk the discard. However, you know that risking your discard is safe, so putting player 2 in that position is not a problem.

So you really need to think through the sequences, not just the efficiency of clues in one direction. With 1-red, the play goes either:
A: Clue 1s
B: play 1r
A: clue red

Or:
A: clue 1s
B: clue colour
A: clue red

Or:
A: clue 1s
B: clue 5s
A: clue red

The third sequence should only occur if A has a 5 on chop. The second sequence should only occur if A has a 1 on chop and a 1 cluable by colour (and the two may be the same). Knowing that, the deductions can be made for appropriate follow-on plays. In the third scenario, if the clued colour is green or red, A discards the clued card, which gives B information about their 1s. (Although, there is a risk that the cluable 1 is 1m.)

Of course, this all goes out the window if Black Powder is added.
Stroom
Posts: 428
Joined: 14 July 2016, 19:10

Re: first clue in 2 player

Post by Stroom »

Yes, exactly. With more experienced players, 1-red should do the trick.

Red-green is not as efficient as you will need a 3rd clue for the R2. So you didn't really conserve any clues in the end.

1-red might be the best at first but it will depend on what clues you get in return. Still, you used 2 clues to mark 3 cards as playable. Some players might not understand the 1-red flow since if they give YOU a 1 clue and you mark red, they might think that you are just trying to prevent bombing. Therefore the R2 might not be played.

1-2 is the safest option all around. If you are so keen on marking M3, take into consideration that you have to play 3 cards before you are in any position to discard. Therefore, there's a quite high chance that you draw another playable card that could be marked with a color clue which also marks M3.
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Travis Hall
Posts: 213
Joined: 12 April 2020, 14:13

Re: first clue in 2 player

Post by Travis Hall »

Stroom wrote: 11 December 2021, 07:21 Yes, exactly. With more experienced players, 1-red should do the trick.
There’s no point in dumbing down your play for less-experienced players. Either you want them to improve, which means showing them the good techniques, or you might as well find a good partner,
Stroom wrote: 11 December 2021, 07:21 1-red might be the best at first but it will depend on what clues you get in return. Still, you used 2 clues to mark 3 cards as playable. Some players might not understand the 1-red flow since if they give YOU a 1 clue and you mark red, they might think that you are just trying to prevent bombing. Therefore the R2 might not be played.
If they clue 1s, you can’t prevent misfires because you don’t know what colour your 1 is. So they shouldn’t clue 1s until they know what their 1s are.

(And if I was first player, and the 2r wasn’t in second player’s hand, I would be reassessing the utility of of an opening 1s clue. It only works as well as it dies because there is a follow-up clue to give.)

And all of that means that the red clue’s interpretation is clear. If a player can’t see that, give the clue, and explain after so that they can improve.
Stroom wrote: 11 December 2021, 07:21 1-2 is the safest option all around. If you are so keen on marking M3, take into consideration that you have to play 3 cards before you are in any position to discard. Therefore, there's a quite high chance that you draw another playable card that could be marked with a color clue which also marks M3.
No, that’s pointless. If you want to mark 3m, mark it immediately. Wanting to mark it but waiting to see if you get a second opportunity does not help.

I’ve also become a lot less worried about locking hands than I once was. Again, I’m not an expert on 2-player, and maybe the probability of locking up is high enough to warrant not marking 3s early, but I think generally if you do have a partner lock up, you can spare a token to tell them which card is safe(r) to discard.
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Wreckage
Posts: 396
Joined: 18 January 2017, 02:10

Re: first clue in 2 player

Post by Wreckage »

Stroom, when you are looking at giving 1 clue first, you are playing your 1s first to see what they are, as you should. But when you are looking at red clue first, then you are mindlessly giving green clue even though your partner clues up to three 1s sometimes and you have time to play at least once to see what it is before giving a second clue.

Partner: Image
Me: Image

<< Red-Green >>
M: Red clue
P: 1 clue
M: Play G1
P: White clue
M: Play W1
P: 4 clue
M: Play W2
P: Play R1
M: Play W3
P: Discard G1
M 2 clue
P: Play R2 …..turn #12 / 4 tokens left

5 clues. 6 plays (7 since W4 is marked to play), M3 is marked red. M2 is marked white.
Your example of red clue first showed only 3 cards played at this point.

<< 1-2 >>
M: 1 clue
P: 1 clue
M: 2 clue
P: 2 clue
M: Play G1
P: Bomb G1
M: Play W1
P: Play R1
M: Play W2
P: White clue
M: Play W3
P: Play R2 …. turn #12 / 3 tokens left
5 clues. 6 plays. 1 bomb. W4 is marked white. M2 is marked W2. M3 is not marked.
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Wreckage
Posts: 396
Joined: 18 January 2017, 02:10

Re: first clue in 2 player

Post by Wreckage »

Partner: Image
Me: Image

<< Red-Green >>
M: Red clue
P: 1 clue
M: Play G1
P: 5 clue
M: 2 clue
P: Play R1
M: Discard G4
P: 4 clue
M: Discard B3
P: Play R2 (Could save the R3 instead since you know your 2 is red)
M: Discard R3
P: Discard G1 ….turn #12 / 7 tokens left

5 clues. 3 plays. M3 is marked red.

<< 1-2 >>
M: 1 clue
P: 1 clue (this 1 must be clued now or it is lost)
M: 2 clue
P: Play G1
M: Bomb G1
P: 5 clue
M: Discard G4
P: 4 clue
M: Discard B3
P: Play R1 (could save R3 instead since you know your 2 is green or red)
M: Discard R3
P: Play R2 ….turn # 12 / 6 tokens left

5 clues. 3 plays. 1 bomb. M3 is not marked.
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Wreckage
Posts: 396
Joined: 18 January 2017, 02:10

Re: first clue in 2 player

Post by Wreckage »

Partner: Image
Me: Image

<< Red-Green >>
M: Red clue
P: 1 clue
M: Play Y1
P: Discard R1
M: Green clue
P: Play G1
M: Play R1
P: Discard Y3
M: Play M1
P: discard W4
M: 2 clue
P: Play R2 ….turn #12/ 6 tokens left

4 clues. 5 plays. M3 is marked multi.

<< Red-Green (if green clue not possible on turn #5) >>
M: Red clue
P: 1 clue
M: Play Y1
P: Discard R1
M: Play R1
P:Discard G1
M: 2 clue (early because we are at at 8 tokens)
P: Play R2
M: Play M1
P: Discard Y3
M: Discard
P: Discard….turn #12 / 10 tokens left
(it’s impossible to discard the last two turns, but I want to end on the same turn #)

3 clues. 4 plays. G1 was lost. M3 is marked red.

<< 1 - 2 >>
M: 1 clue
P: Play G1
M: 2 clue
P: Play R1
M: Discard W3
P: Yellow clue
M: Play M1
P: Play R2
M: Discard R1
P: 1 clue
M: Play Y1
P: Discard M3 ….turn # 12 / 6 tokens left

4 clues. 4 plays. M3 is not marked.
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Silene
Posts: 980
Joined: 23 October 2013, 17:50

Re: first clue in 2 player

Post by Silene »

Wreckage wrote: 11 December 2021, 13:46 << Red-Green (if green clue not possible on turn #5) >>
M: Red clue
P: 1 clue
M: Play Y1
P: Discard R1
M: Play R1
P:Discard G1
M: 2 clue (early because we are at at 8 tokens)
P: Play R2
M: Play M1
P: Discard Y3
M: Discard
P: Discard….turn #12 / 10 tokens left
(it’s impossible to discard the last two turns, but I want to end on the same turn #)

3 clues. 4 plays. G1 was lost. M3 is marked red.
Nah, we don't need to let G1 go. you can clue 1 after a green is drawn. (~4% chance bad draw of another m1 but still better to clue even then).
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