Change the description for Wooden Hut Extender

[interestedgamer]

I ran into an issue when I thought I could combo Wooden Hut Extender with Carpenter's Parlor. I thought I would be able to build wood rooms for 2W1R but the game wouldn't let me. I reported it as a bug but was told by Tisaac that it's notabug because they both set a base cost and can't be comboed. It could only be comboed with a card that says it reduces costs.

My main problem with this is the wording in Wooden Hut Extender's description. The way it is currently written implies that it sets a universal hard ceiling for reed cost and not that it's the activation of an occupation that sets a base cost.

WHE's description reads "Wood rooms now cost you 1 reed, and additionally 5W through round 5, 4W in rounds 6 and 7, and 3W in round 8 and later"

The following is the way I interpreted WHE after reading and why I decided to combo with CP:
Wood rooms now cost you 1 reed (IMO implies this is not a choice and cannot be deviated from once played), AND ADDITIONALLY (further reinforces that the reed clause is separate from the wood clause) 5W etc...

I can see Tisaac's point when they say you have to read the whole card and not just latch onto the clause about reed, but I think it is needlessly ambiguous. If the card is to be followed as Tisaac says then I think it should be written something like:

"When you build wood rooms, instead of paying 5W2R you can pay 1R and 5/4/3W when there have been at most 4/6/13 completed rounds."

I think this way it would be clear that Wooden Hut Extender is going to be choice that CAN be activated and will set those costs. As far as I can tell my description doesn't change what WHE does, and it pretty clearly would not combo with Carpenter's Parlour written this way.

Keen to hear peoples' thoughts.

[EconSean]

I definitely agree that Wooden Hut Extender can be worded better to make it clear. The problem with this wording is that people might see "completed rounds" and get confused into thinking that it works in round 4, but there might be a similar wording that does something. I don't know if it's worth the trouble to change the card text just to clarify one thing. I think that when you play with enough of the cards, it makes internal sense to look for effects that discount vs things that replace, and that two things that replace can't be used together. It's unfortunate that you had this interaction, but I think that once you know what to look for (discount or replace), it's apparent enough. I do agree that wording on some of the cards can be refined to make such clarifications more consistent and apparent to people who may not have seen them before.

[interestedgamer]

Thanks for the reply! Big fan of your streams and strategy info.

It's a good lesson on the discount vs replace dynamic. Do you have a link to somewhere where all the rules for card interactions are?

It was my first time playing with it and funnily enough it seems I was even more confused about Wooden Hut Extender than I thought. I assumed "5W through round 5" meant 5W up to and including round 5. I don't know if it's an Australian English thing or if I've just fabricated that, but I swear "through" is often used in that way. Seems like a strange choice over "beginning" or "starting" or "as of".

You're right that it's probably not worth changing. It was a good exercise in thinking about the cards. Thanks for the clarity

[torvaldur_makan]

I agree that it is worded a bit weird, but it is not ambiguous. In your interpretation the two cards you play are conflicting (the room can't both cost 1 reed and 2 reed), which means they don't combo. I assume you could choose to use the Carpenter's Parlor or WHE cost?

Base cost vs. discount on rooms is as old as the game and I suppose it is something every player has to learn at some point. Sometimes the hard way .

I believe they have to go through the developer to change the text on the cards and I doubt they will do that in cases where it "just difficult" to understand what it means.

[interestedgamer]

I suppose my contention is that the card descriptions can make this base cost vs. discount rule inherently clear. If there was an Occ or Minor that said "Wood rooms now cost you 1 reed per room" it wouldn't be particularly clear to a brand new player that this wouldn't apply to Carpenter's Parlor.

In fact in this document (http://play-agricola.com/Agricola/HowTo ... p-v7.1.pdf) it says that Axe can be combined with Straw-Thatched Roof. I don't know if this is outdated or incorrect, but I don't see how Straw-Thatched Roof isn't considered a base cost card. It doesn't reduce the reed cost by any specific amount. The room can't cost both 0 reed and 2 reed.

I realise I'm probably wrong here for a reason that is clear to experienced players, but it's not clear to me as a beginner.

[euklid314]

Since I am not a native english speaker and I am not sure about the german translation as well, I want to ask about the "through round 5"- part.

Does that mean, that after having played WHE you can build rooms in rounds 1,2,3,4 or 5 for a cost of 5W1R?

[Ranior]

Yes, with WHE you can build rooms through round 5 for 5w1r.

I'm sorry you're having this confusion OP, but I'm not convinced there is a much better way to phrase these cards.

Carpenter's Parlor says "Wooden Rooms only cost you 2 wood and 2 reed each".

I don't see how you can combine that with Wooden Hut Extender, it doesn't say you can pay one reed less for wooden rooms, it gives you a specific cost for Wooden Rooms.

Compare this to something like Straw Thatched Roof: "You no longer need reed to renovate or build a room". This isn't listing a cost for a room at all, it is telling you you get to ignore certain costs.

Or Bricklayer: "Each room costs you 2 clay less".

Cards like Straw Thatched Roof and Bricklayer are telling you you can pay less for rooms, and you compare that vs some cost for rooms (either the amount printed on the space, or some other card that tells you you can build rooms for some other resource cost). Cards like Carpenters Parlor, Clay Supports, or Wooden Hut Extender instead give you specific costs for a room.

[interestedgamer]

Thanks Ranior, I'm starting to get the logic now. Could you or someone else clarify that you can use WHE before round 5? And/or what EconSean meant by people being confused thinking it might work in round 4?

My main issues are that I can imagine a card that says "Wood rooms now cost you 1 reed per room" and because of the definitive language it says to me that is giving me a hard ceiling reed costs that will override other cards. My brain also just doesn't see a difference between "You no longer need reed to renovate or build a room" and "rooms and renovations cost 0 reed".

But knowing this is how the game works I'll be able to adjust. Thanks again for the help.

[Ranior]

Thanks Ranior, I'm starting to get the logic now. Could you or someone else clarify that you can use WHE before round 5? And/or what EconSean meant by people being confused thinking it might work in round 4?

Yes, you can use WHE to build a room for 5w1r in round 1 through 5 inclusive.

I think he's saying your suggested wording could get confusing for what rounds it works in.

I will say WHE maybe could try to get the wording slightly clearer, perhaps more similar to what Clay Supports uses. Although WHE biggest issue is trying to explain that decreasing wood cost, so it is messy.

[euklid314]

Thanks Ranior. Your explanation of "through round 5" is as I have expected. I would have interpreted it that way - no need to change the english wording. I was never confused, just wanted to verify. Also changed cost vs. reduced cost is clear.

In the german translation it says something like "From now on you can build each room for a cost of 1R and 5W IN round 5, ...", i.e. "in Runde 5" is a bad translation of "through round 5".

Unfortunately there is no compact german counterpart to the phrase "through round 5". To make it precise one would need to say "bis inklusive Runde 5" instead of "in Runde 5" - which makes the long card text even longer.