Limit the number of suggestions to agree to a tie/ draw

[SmilingDevil]

This Bug report concerns this topic:


I am currently confronting a player (not for the first time) who claims he does not understand the difference between forfeiting / loosing / giving up a game or a draw/tie.



she/ he keeps suggesting a draw/tie in a game instead of moving along with the game that has clearly been lost and she / he is stalling and trying to make me agree to a draw by accident or out of annoyance. She / he keeps reacting in the chat acting all angry about the fact I tell her / him that she / he has to forfeit the game instead of keep suggesting a tie. (With 5000;games logged and 26k XP, I assume the controls of BGA are well understood)

I want to suggest a maximum number of suggestions for a draws /tie to be implemented.

A maximum of three suggestions to tie / draw per player would be enough. In addition I would appreciate an info text coming up to a player suggesting a draw for a second time in the same game to explain that the opponent has already declined once and what the reasons may be.
Something along the Lines of: "You are repeating your request for a Draw, but your opponent has declined this. He may think he will win the game, so please either continue playing or abandon the game, in this case you will loose." (Especially if no move or progress was made in between the suggestions, I’d suggest to reduce that players remaining game time, like explained in the next section)

In case the player wants to suggest a draw a third time (and make even further suggestions) he should at the same time agree to his remaining game time be cut in half or such… just to make sure this kind of annoyance is not without consequences.

Pretty much , we are here: https://youtu.be/ZmInkxbvlCs?t=156 with the only difference, the hacked off limbs and torso are blocking the bridge for me to move on...

Oh: I would totally appreciate if said warning Text for repeated request for a draw could contain this picture….



**admin edit : no public name droppings allowed, please use the contact form when needed.***

[SmilingDevil]

This problem was previously reported in this Bug by someone else ( please upvote)

https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=11770

[SmilingDevil]

For Your Entertainment:


---------------Complete Moves and Chat Transcript (No Playxer names disclosed):
(Numbers in Brackets are Positions counted from the left and from the top.. )

2.2.2022
Me: Hello from Germany, Good game, & Good Luck
16:09

DAO: Hello ☺ you too g/l - h/f... 17:44

Move 2 :2.2.2022 17:45:09
DAO: Places a Piece at (4 : 1)
DAO: : 2 Days
Me: : 3 Days

Move 3 :17:55:19
Me: Places a Piece at (6 : 4)
Me: : 2 Days

Move 4 :23:32:59
DAO: Places a Piece at (4 : 2)
DAO: : 2 Days

Move 5 :23:35:28
Me: Places a Piece at (4 : 3)
Me: : 2 Days

Move 6 :3.2.2022 01:44:17
DAO: Places a Piece at (7 : 4)
DAO: : 2 Days

Move 7 :10:14:54
Me: Places a Piece at (5 : 3)
Me: : 2 Days

Move 8 :12:56:46
DAO: Places a Piece at (6 : 2)
DAO: : 2 Days

Move 9 :14:04:11
Me: Places a Piece at (3 : 3)
Me: : 2 Days

Move 10 :14:04:13
Me: removes a piece from (4 : 2)
Me: : 2 Days

Move 11 :17:17:53
DAO: Places a Piece at (5 : 5)
DAO: : 2 Days

Move 12 :18:09:16
Me: Places a Piece at (7 : 1)
Me: : 2 Days

Move 13 :22:34:34
DAO: Places a Piece at (4 : 5)
DAO: : 2 Days






Move 14 :4.2.2022 09:16:28
Me: Places a Piece at (3 : 5)
Me: : 2 Days

Move 15 :12:07:08
DAO: Places a Piece at (3 : 4)
DAO: : 2 Days

Move 16 :12:08:58
Me: Places a Piece at (4 : 2)
Me: : 2 Days

Move 17 :21:00:48
DAO: Places a Piece at (2 : 4)
DAO: : 2 Days

Move 18 :21:07:06
Me: Places a Piece at (1 : 4)
Me: : 2 Days

Move 19 :23:31:07
DAO: Places a Piece at (1 : 7)
DAO: : 2 Days

Move 20 :23:36:17
Me: Places a Piece at (4 : 7)
Me: : 2 Days

Move 21 :5.2.2022 18:40:13
DAO: suggesting a „draw“ <-------------------------------(1)
DAO: : 2 Days

Move 22 :18:44:45
Me: Declining to settle for a „draw“
Me: : 2 Days



Move 23 :19:50:12
DAO: moves a piece from (2 : 4) to (2 : 6)
DAO: : 2 Days

Move 24 :19:52:46
Me: moves a piece from (5 : 3) to (5 : 4)
Me: : 2 Days


5.2.2022
Me: Guess this game is over for you, you could give up, but I won’t go with a draw 19:54

Me: I don’t mean to be rude, but here is how this will go: you need 4 moves to at least get a shot at a mill, I have a double mill in about the same time. Sorry 20:04

Move 25 :21:44:20
DAO: moves a piece from (4 : 5) to (4 : 6)
DAO: : 2 Days

DAO: it's not a draw since you have already won then?You played 29 and won 2, and I only played 4 games - and I don't understand your last explanation not finding the game fascinating ....☺ 21:42

Move 26 :23:24:55
Me: moves a piece from (5 : 4) to (5 : 3)
Me: : 2 Days

Move 27 :23:25:01
Me: removes a piece from (5 : 5)
Me: : 2 Days

Me: You were suggesting a draw right at the beginning, and from all I know, this means no matter what the score is, this game will end in a tie, and I was just telling you, I’ll not go for that. You may resign if you want though 23:27


6.2.2022
DAO: you interpret my words or actions in a negative way, I have no aggressiveness, simply I answered a possibility of a draw because the question was put to me, not to bore you ... there is no reason to make such a controversy ....... 01:44

Move 28 :6.2.2022 01:46:59
DAO: moves a piece from (2 : 6) to (2 : 4)
DAO: : 2 Days

Me: Move 29 :06:59:53
Me: moves a piece from (5 : 3) to (5 : 4)
Me: : 2 Days

Me: If that is so, I appreciate the thought, but then quit the game, otherwise you are trying to trick me into not winning, a draw is saying, we both win/loose, 07:01

DAO: gg 15:11

Move 30 :15:11:36
DAO: suggesting a „draw“ <-------------------------------(2)
DAO: : 2 Days

Me: Stop suggesting a draw, if you want to end this, give up 16:20

Move 31 :16:20:40
Me: Declining to settle for a „draw“
Me: : 2 Days

Me: Go to the icon with the three horizontal lines top right corner and select the white flag to give up, otherwise play please 16:22

Me: I am having a hard time to believe that someone with over 5000 games and 26k XP played does not know the difference between a draw and a defeat. So unless you now Give up this game properly by clicking as I said in the top right corner and selecting the white flag I will assume that ... 16:34

Me: ...You are trying to play dumb and bully me into walking away empty-handed from this table. As I said before I will not do that , so in case you suggest a draw one more time I will Assume that you are wasting my time deliberately. I will act accordingly. 16:36

DAO: sous ton dernier message est indiqué : insulte ? provocation ? de ta part..... dixit BGA... 16:44

DAO: what hostility towards me - you don't have to give me orders... I asked for the game to be stopped but you refused twice... you would be an expert I would understand but we are only simple apprentices so don't overdo it... 16:45

Me: Then Please play and don’t take orders from me it’s fine. I was simply trying to help you finding the right button but as I said I must assume you were doing this on purpose 16:45

Me: That is the problem you did not ask to stop the game you asked to draw which means you and I share points and you are clearly losing 16:47

Me: Stop stalling and make your move please, or forfeit the game as I suggested 16:49

DAO: you can stop it now... plus de provocation !! 16:49
then move 16:49

6.2.2022
DAO: as I suggested !... but who are you to talk to me like that ? 16:50

Me: Are you seriously not getting that what you were suggesting it’s an insult to me? You are suggesting to share this games score. Since you obviously lost that is not going to happen so please forfeit the game or play. 16:51

Me: Take a dictionary and look up the word “draw” and “forfeit” to understand the difference. 16:53

Me: I can only tell you, I cannot understand it for you 16:53

Me: Move a piece on the board please 16:56

DAO: I asked "draw" and never asked "forfeit"I never asked for the abandonment of the game as you order it, the rules of the game give me the right to stop differently 16:57

Me: You asked for a draw and I declined because this means we will share the points. But you are losing the game so please forfeit or make your move on the board 16:59

DAO: and I play when I want, you have no right to force someone, I have 2 days left... 17:00

Me: I will make sure that the time will be well spent and try to find out if I can report this kind of behaviour . It is simply plain rude and unacceptable 17:01

Me: You know very well that suggesting a draw is getting you better off then if you play the game. 17:01

Me: So you keep suggesting a draw and hoping I will fall for it which I do not. So please stop wasting my time with this. 17:02

DAO: So you're up to threats? while I am in my full right? I've never faced such an unpleasant player - you say "It is simply plain rude and unacceptable", but that's just you you're describing.... - and I don't hope anyone's downfall, you like to argue too much 17:14

Me: No I’m simply asking you to keep playing this game and move it along. And in case you keep stalling I will use the time you are giving me, the choice is entirely up to you 17:20

So you are really trying to tell me that after 5000 games you have already played you do not understand the difference between a tie and losing a game? 17:21

Me: Try to see it from my from my perspective: I won and you and I both know that and you keep doing everything to not admit to this fact. You could have made several moves by now instead you are still trying to chat me up to accept your tie which I will not and I stated that right in the beginning. 17:25

Me: So I will win the long or the short way. It is up to you what I do in the meantime with the time you stall here. You will eventually run out of time and you will get a time punishment and loss of carma, you can avoid that by just keep this game going 17:27

DAO: you only know how to make threats, put pressure on me and you humiliate me (you don't have the right to do so)... you make me a lawsuit or even an investigation by indicating the figures of my games.... 17:42

DAO: you are threatening me with punishment at this game when I have done nothing reprehensible!! I won't lose points being an apprentice.. your nickname suits you perfectly except... no humor! 17:42

Me: All you do is trying to postpone your defeat.. I got all the time in the world… It’s not a threat I’m simply telling you what is going to happen if you like it or not 17:43

So in case you actually want this to continue then please make your move otherwise you make it very obvious that you are trying to cheat 17:46

6.2.2022

Me: Maybe this will make it clearer for you: You can Watch the whole thing or skip to 2:40 this is the scene that concerns you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs?t=154s 18:12

Move 32 :23:49:40
DAO: moves a piece from (2 : 4) to (2 : 6)
DAO: : 2 Days


7.2.2022

Me: I was actually suspecting this was gonna be your next action…. Trying to make your move at a time that was most likely be unnoticed for some time… well, can we now quit this childish stuff? 00:04

Move 33 :7.2.2022 00:00:49
Me: moves a piece from (5 : 4) to (5 : 3)
Me: : 2 Days
Move 34 :00:00:59
Me: removes a piece from (7 : 4)
Me: : 2 Days

DAO: je ne comprends pas ton anglais... je dois te manquer ! tu as besoin d'échanger sans arrêt... je ne vais pas sur ton youtube non plus 01:22
(Translation: I don't understand your English... you must miss me! you need to talk non-stop... I'm not going to your youtube either)

Move 35 :01:23:11
DAO: suggesting a „draw“ <-------------------------------(3)
DAO: : 2 Days

Move 36 :06:21:48
Me: Declining to settle for a „draw“
Me: : 2 Days

Me: ok, je joue la carte des langues maintenant.... très bien. Vous essayez de m'imposer une nulle, vous retardez délibérément le déplacement de vos pièces de jeu, et vous faites l'idiot en essayant d'éviter la défaite. et tout le long vous essayez de faire croire que je suis le connard ici... .. 06:40
Me: abadonne le jeu ou faites vos mouvements, s'il vous plait. 06:41
(Translation: ok, playing the language card now.... fine. You try to force a draw on me, you deliberately delay moving your playing pieces, and you play the Idiot trying to avoid defeat. and all along you're trying to make it look like I'm the asshole here... give up the game or make your moves, please
..)

Me: oh and Besides, I do have a lot of humor, which quite frank is lost to you not daring to watch a youtube video, but I could not care less.. here is another one for you... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ro4DrewXHE 07:44

[Some Spectator enters the game]

Me: hello visitor 08:16
Me: Sorry not much to see here 08:16
Me: But for your entertainment: https://youtu.be/sEj8lUx0gwY 11:00

DAO: salut ! connard ça passe ???? c'est toi qui l'as écrit et c'est une grosse in.sul.te !! ☻☻ 11:54
DAO: où est le timeout ? tu rêves? et arrête de me donner l'ordre de voir tes youtube !! je ne le fais pas c'est mon choix... 12:06
(Translation: ! asshole is it ok???? it's you who wrote it and it's a big in.sul.te!!)

Me: Hahaha calling me a A–hole in French does not make it sound more cute or make it less punishable… keep it comming, in the chat or make your moves in the game. I don’t honestly give a damn. You are acting like a cheat and I will call you out. 12:06

DAO: you said "abandon " I did it !!!! and you refused !! your dream is to kick me out of the game ... 12:08

Me: No you did not, stop taking me for the fool you are 12:11

DAO: abandon c'est ça 12:15
(Translation: give up that's it

DAO: sans perte de points !! 12:16
(Translation without loss of points!!)

Me: Yes !you will lose this game and you will lose points that is how losing actually works you will lose because you are losing, got it? 12:18

Me: I will not share points with you because you are losing , are you finally getting it? 12:19

DAO: je le dis depuis le début je t'ai même écrit : GG 12:19
(Translation: I've been saying it from the start, I even wrote to you:GG)

7.2.2022

DAO: pas un problème pour moi de perdre à ce style de jeu !!! 12:19
(Translation: not a problem for me to lose at this style of game!!!)

DAO: not even ! but you must be very difficult to live with on a daily basis, you look like the sign of the scorpion... 12:20

DAO: je n'ai aucun point à perdre puisque je suis à ZERO point 12:21

Me: Don’t try to bring up any sorts of voodoo or Zodiac belief I am not Scorpio and by the way you have again tried to suggest a draw which I said from the beginning I will not agree to. 12:21

DAO: ABANDON not a draw..! can't you see the difference ?? and you win... 12:22

Move 37 :12:27:43
DAO: moves a piece from (2 : 6) to (2 : 4)
DAO: : 2 Days

Move 38 :12:27:56
Me: moves a piece from (7 : 1) to (7 : 4)
Me: : 2 Days

Move 39 :12:30:29
DAO: suggesting a „draw“ <-------------------------------(4)
DAO: : 2 Days

Move 40 :12:30:33
Me: Declining to settle for a „draw“
Me: : 2 Days

Me: Yes I can see the difference 12:31
Me: and that is why I do not agree to a draw 12:31

Me: You are losing that’s why you are not getting any points , that’s why we are not sharing points, that’s why you are not getting a draw … is the message still not getting through? Keep stalling and you will lose this game because you will run out of time. Suggest another draw and I will report you. 12:38

Me: Kept the moves comming, it’s is over in 20 minutes. 12:39

Me: I want to see the White flag Or you going down in flames, of fade away in a few days, I don’t care. You are messing with the wrong player here, and the worst part is : you know this is wrong, and still you keep trying to make me feel gulty, no sir, not you, not today, not ever. 13:08

DAO: and NOBODY - it's useless to insult me, give me orders, want to denounce me but what? I play with the rules of the game I am in my full rights, you only know how to nitpick all the time - blabla que tout cela... je ne suis pas Sir ! je suis Lady... over in 20' ? how ? 14:24
(Translation: blabla that all that ... I'm not Sir! I am Lady.)

Me: Whatever floats your boat, all I see is a cheap cheater, wrapped in self righteousnesses, knowing she is guilty as sin but too proud or ignorant to admit and stop wasting other peoples time with this childish behaviour, admit you lost by actually loosing and get a life. 14:51

Me: Since you claim you won’t loose any score anyway, put your money where your mouth is and get it over with. What is all this commotion all about then, you lost, I will not share points with you, call that whatever you want. I am not feeding on your approval. 14:56

Me: And about that being a Lady I have this for you https://youtu.be/EiN0tkf_XDo 15:03

DAO: je n'ai jamais déclarer gagner, je t'ai même écrit GG donc...tu mens beaucoup... tu crois être un dur, je ne te connais pas mais je sais qui tu es et je décèle tes failles...par ailleurs tu occultes une façon de finir le jeu avec tes points n'aie pas peur 16:55
(Translation: I never declared winning, I even wrote you GG so... you lie a lot... you think you're tough, I don't know you but I know who you are and I detect your flaws... by the way you hide a way to finish the game with your points don't be afraid)


Move 41 :17:25:58
DAO: Forfeits the Game
DAO: : 2 Days

END OF GAME: Me: Wins!

Me: Finally, 17:26

Me: In case you think this is over, I hope the admin will look into this…. 17:27
As I Said, whatever floats your boat, I don’t need you or your pathetic merde around me or in my life, waste someone else’s time , thank you …. 17:35

Me: But you know what is the good thing that came from all of this? You finally learned how to properly forfeit a game, you have finally found the right button. You will never ever be able to say that you don’t know how this works, this chat is going to be open and visible for every user in the board. 17:38

~ Me: has left the Chat ~ 17:53

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[aesche]

Ok, I see that your post got moderated already. Kind of a pitty, because it stops this from falling onto your own feet. Can‘t quote it anymore, but your behaviour rather was more off than your opponents one. If he reports you, you get a fair moderation, just as you‘d have deserved for the original post. And I‘d not bet much that he qualifies for a moderation - in the end he only uses the tools given in the game.

Last but not least, if you want this to be fixed, it won‘t help any with a report on a different game. Nor will a rant as this post initially was, and your reaction towards the opponent.

EDIT: since you are so full of yourself and insist on displaying it again: The only one that is a bully there is you, and I really hope he‘ll report you for that.

EDIT2: Oh, and btw, you suck hard in that game.

[SmilingDevil]

We will be seeing about that, shall we? (edit: Admin ruled a 10 Points karma punishment; for THE OTHER PLAYER)

You can’t be serious, I have offered assistance to her in any possible way. I even suggested how to reach the correct setting in the game so she can forfeit properly. But after making this obvious she in not getting it or might even do this on purpose, I was not having any of this crap, So I as well just “used the tools available” .

At the point where she was just trying to consume my time with this I was getting back at her with snarky remarks that is correct. As I was not getting personal, but on topic this is way acceptable from where I stand, what was supposed to be a quick game with less than 10 moves to make it took days.

I am assuming this has a method to it. Just think: you start turn based games all across the different Games in BGA if you win, take the score, if you loose, bully for a split… that will boost your numbers, right? I Don’t get why, but it’s just making this unfair for everyone else.

So my suggestions how BGA developers could easily fix this by limiting the numbers of suggestions of a draw is definitely helping this problem. Have you ever encountered this kind of behaviour? Imagine your opponent at your last game you were clearly winning suggested this was all just a game and you should just settle for a draw four times over a period of 3 days with no moves made in the meantime… how much fun would you think that is?

@Aesche Concerning edit1 yes, because I think this whole thing can only be made aware of if you get to read to what length this person went to not give up the game thinking he could bully someone into splitting the score after plain loosing.

@Aesche Concerning edit 2 obviously not that much, and how else am I supposed to learn other by trying, at least I’m not cheating my opponents for their winnings…. besides , getting personal now is solving things real nice and helping this case, right?

[Silene]

I totally agree the suggestion to limit the number of times you can suggest a draw.

However this was not a good example because
a) she didn't even suggest it that often
b) this example is more about escalating a situation than about proposing a draw

I agree what aesche said: it was mostly you who escalated this situation. I do not agree the way he said it, because his tone sounds very similar to what he's critisizing.

You say you wanted to help by explaining how to concede. But words matter. The way you said it and the fact that you suggested malintention very early on makes her's a very normal reaction. People do not like to follow or try to understand what people say to them when said in a tone like that. On the contrary: When feeling attacked, most people go right into opposition.

My advice would be: try to be nice and people are more likely to try to understand what you actually want to say.

Tbf, yes, you started in a friendly tone (even though i don't know why you felt the need to explain refusal of a draw by pointing out that you are winning but ok). Only after she responded in a friendly tone (that made clear she didn't fully understand the issue) you started sharpening your tone, which I think was totally no need for.

[Castamere]

Telling the other player to give up was unnecessary and unsportsmanlike. That being said, the other player should not have kept asking to draw the game, instead of conceding or playing it to the end.

Overall, I agree with the suggestion. The number of times a player can ask to draw a game should be limited.

[SmilingDevil]

Telling the other player to give up was unnecessary and unsportsmanlike….

I only did so AFTER she suggested the first draw, sitting in a position she couldn’t win anymore.. this is when it started going south.. I was not trying to put her down, but It was quite obvious something was off, especially with her having 5000 games played on BGA, let’s face it: she was no rookie on her first match.

[Silene]

In the log she said it was only her 4th game. Was that a lie? If not - can't expect someone to understand what is a clearly won/lost or even position in that specific game.

Also most games do not have the option to offer a draw. Playing other games does't mean it's clear what that means.

[SmilingDevil]

It was her fourth game in “nine men Morris”, you can’t lie about this on BGA I guess, but she had 5000 games logged and 26000 Xp points on BGA total with alt least 20 different type of games in the past 6 Months, there is no way she did not know how the controls work or what the difference between suggesting a draw and giving up a game is.
Besides, she was deliberately feeding me false info, as in if I accept the draw, I’d still win, since I was in the lead with points…. which a new player might fall for…. But acted all irate when she understood I was expecting her to forfeit If she did not want to go on, which she seemingly did not, since she stopped moving pieces for over 24h, but was online constantly and answering the chat.