Concealed dice

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waltero
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Joined: 17 March 2013, 05:00

Re: Concealed dice

Post by waltero »

Thought I was explaining it rather well :cry:

Okay, lookie here: All games have luck/dice. Some of the more popular games have die/dice (its all math), but they don't display them.
This game could be played with one die. You don't need to have more than one dice in any given combat. What is your reaction when you lose a Battle, having one die roll - rolling a single 6, vs five dice...rolling all 6's. Physically rolling the dice, vs computer generated dice rolls, has an adverse effect as well.

The, visual side effects dice have on your Psyche. You want to learn a game, learn to play without thinking dice. Dice are a total distraction. There's much more important things you should be thinking about. A single Flag (retreat) result can cause much more damage than four hits...if you're tuned in to the 'kill ratio' (all the time) on a single combat roll, you might not see that...much less learn of it's potential.

When you win a game it is luck. When I Win a game - it is skill and daring, Skill and Daring! How are you going to tell me any different...when you play a game of 'luck'...always looking, speaking, thinking, strategizing, lambasting, gloating, dying, crying, whining about dice???

I feel this game could become a serous War game...Little chance of that ever happening while the 'dice' are playing the game.
GO ahead and have your dice stats posted. Any real reason why the dice should show up in game? Yes they are pretty, but they are a determent to this game.
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Tisaac
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Re: Concealed dice

Post by Tisaac »

I still dont understand, are you suggesting to change the rules ?
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waltero
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Re: Concealed dice

Post by waltero »

Tisaac wrote: 06 June 2022, 07:39 Are you suggesting to change the rules ?
Not at all.

If you want to get technical; The Rules have already been changed. If we're going by the rules, the game would have each player roll his or her own dice. We don't have any of that when it comes to computer games (not even a simple dice button for players to press). Dice! There are no actual dice in this game. It's all computer generated. Why bother having any visual simulation (regarding dice)? It's a complete distraction. Have you ever played the game without looking at the dice?
Jest Phulin wrote: 05 June 2022, 19:52
waltero wrote: 05 June 2022, 06:00 why bother visualizing dice?
having visual dice will remind people that there is another element affecting the outcome of the game.
Yes, how many players will view/use it as the only outcome affecting/infecting the game? Having access to the dice is intrinsic to a high quality tabletop/Board game...not in a computer game.

This might apply to other 'War games" but I am talking about the BGA computer game, Memoir 44.
I meant to post this on the Memoir 44 site. But like you said; it doesn't matter anyway.

I love this game but can't be bothered playing it. Too many whiny crybaby's upset because the game of dice doesn't play fair...You don't get this in the more serious War games...the dice are a no show!

Enjoy ;)
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Tisaac
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Re: Concealed dice

Post by Tisaac »

waltero wrote: 06 June 2022, 16:39
Tisaac wrote: 06 June 2022, 07:39 Are you suggesting to change the rules ?
Not at all.

If you want to get technical; The Rules have already been changed. If we're going by the rules, the game would have each player roll his or her own dice. We don't have any of that when it comes to computer games (not even a simple dice button for players to press). Dice! There are no actual dice in this game. It's all computer generated. Why bother having any visual simulation (regarding dice)? It's a complete distraction. Have you ever played the game without looking at the dice?
Jest Phulin wrote: 05 June 2022, 19:52
waltero wrote: 05 June 2022, 06:00 why bother visualizing dice?
having visual dice will remind people that there is another element affecting the outcome of the game.
Yes, how many players will view/use it as the only outcome affecting/infecting the game? Having access to the dice is intrinsic to a high quality tabletop/Board game...not in a computer game.

This might apply to other 'War games" but I am talking about the BGA computer game, Memoir 44.
I meant to post this on the Memoir 44 site. But like you said; it doesn't matter anyway.

I love this game but can't be bothered playing it. Too many whiny crybaby's upset because the game of dice doesn't play fair...You don't get this in the more serious War games...the dice are a no show!

Enjoy ;)
Sorry but i can't follow you, how are you suppose to know the outcome of a dice throw if it's not displayed ? The animation serves this only purpose : show the (pseudo) random generated numbers that will dictate the resolution of the attack. What are you suggesting to let players understand that part without dice ?
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waltero
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Re: Concealed dice

Post by waltero »

How are you supposed to know the outcome of a dice throw if it's not displayed?
I don't understand why you would think that matters?
How are you supposed to know the outcome of a dice throw if it's not displayed?
A single glance (aftermath) will tell you the outcome of any given Battle...Just look at the unit that has been fired upon? Players, have nothing to do with the removal of units...It's automatic.
How are you supposed to know the outcome of a dice throw if it's not displayed?
Thats just it...how are you going to know what a stupid move is, if it's all in the dice? With so many Dice, it can be use as a "scapegoat" of sorts...It wasn't a bad move it was bad dice. :roll:
The animation serves this only purpose
Thats right. Now your getting it. Why bother, it's irrelevant.
I would go on to tell you (if you care) how displaying the dice skews game play, and makes for Sub-par players.

I realize that there is no way GBA will change the game and conceal the dice. Would it be possible to create an option?
I think it would be helpful (newbs) if after X amount of games played, that the dice should be concealed.
Some players need play this game without thinking/using Dice. I've trained myself (crazy hard) not to think or even look at the dice.
I've noticed my game has improve greatly. Previous to this I was on a plateau.

Again: i am talking about the computer game of Memoir 44...computer game only.

If you have never played the game or haven't been playing vary long, or have never played a War game with one battle dice (only) or a computer-War game that doesn't have the battle results displayed in the form of dice...then you will not understand. You have been raised on board game dice and you know nothing different. I believe many players are missing out on their full potential.

I would try to explain what the dice do to a players psyche and how it diminishes (their) game play. If you still have not a clue what I'm talking about, I won't bother trying to explain.

Have fun (but you're not having as much fun as you could be) :lol:
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waltero
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Re: Concealed dice

Post by waltero »

AH, what the heck, I'm Bored.

I'll take it a wee bit slower.

How about this; DO you think it would be possible to take this (M44) game, having players (computer) roll combat dice before moving any of their pieces/units?
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Tisaac
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Re: Concealed dice

Post by Tisaac »

waltero wrote: 07 June 2022, 17:51 AH, what the heck, I'm Bored.

I'll take it a wee bit slower.

How about this; DO you think it would be possible to take this (M44) game, having players (computer) roll combat dice before moving any of their pieces/units?
What ? That would change the game quite a lot so no, we can't do that without breaching license agreement.
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waltero
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Re: Concealed dice

Post by waltero »

Tisaac wrote: 07 June 2022, 23:32 What ? That would change the game
Pardon, I could have phrased it better.
Not the Question...I asked - would it be possible (tabletop for instance)?

Never mind then. Fear the dice...the dice gods frown upon us all! :?
Last edited by waltero on 08 June 2022, 06:27, edited 3 times in total.
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Jest Phulin
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Re: Concealed dice

Post by Jest Phulin »

I think I understand your position, but I don't agree with it.

Better players arise from people who understand the game (including the probabilities that dice introduce). People who blame the dice for their poor decisions will rarely turn into good players. People who credit the dice for their good decisions will rarely turn into good players. But simply removing the animation/display of dice, so it it harder to blame/credit them, is not going to automatically produce better players.
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waltero
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Re: Concealed dice

Post by waltero »

Better players arise from people who understand the game
I get that. But when you learn to rely on the dice vs knowing through experience? A novice might get into the game initially - due to the lure of the pretty dice...this game was unique because it presented unique dice.
The dice lures em in and it's a great game. At some point, in a player's career, the dice should become irrelevant.

I don't look at the dice, I don't think about the dice...see no evil, think no evil! The dice have become non-existent.
It wasn't easy (why is that?) at first.
removing the animation/display of dice, so it harder to blame/credit them, is not going to automatically produce better players.
I think it would produce more serious players.
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