Bring back Turn Based "No Time Limit + Friends Only"

[marta_night]

What an awful change by the admin team that fixes a "problem" maybe 1% of the user base had. There is no world in which no time limit games should be restricted to training mode only. I'll never understand why companies feel the need to make changes that remove options and try to argue that "having less options is actually better for our players"?!?!

From my professional experience, sometimes it really does help to simplify the options. It still will be a bit of an annoyance for people used to it, but with time everyone adjusts. The problem with the NTL feature is that it’s the very basis of a common use case - playing with friends. And it mostly affects paying users, as to create a table for any popular game there has to be a premium member within the group of friends. I don’t understand why there’s been no conversation with the (quite big) affected user base, besides initial messages. Many people post their discontent, but normally, again, from my professional experience, are silent readers and avoid posting, but are still negatively affected.

I think all of the changes would be more accepted if we had democratic info: in this case, could have been a survey available to all users asking about their usage of a feature to be deleted. Right now it feels like a radical fix for a typical corner case.

[Krymn]

Agreed, lets move this up to the top. We need to bring back the no time limit feature for Friend only!

[sourisdudesert]

Unfortunately, because of the Forum pagination, a lot of readers do not see the previous admin answers, so here it is:

If you play a game without time limit, you cannot expel players. It also mean that you are "trapped" in the game if the others players cannot play. This is why "no time limit" should be only played in game with "no penalties" and "no ELO": this way, you can leave the game anytime without any damage to your reputation or rankings. And this is exactly what "training mode" provides: a safe way to play with "no time limit".

The problem with the players "trapped" in a game is a real thing: we did some statistics on it and this is happening, as an average 10 to 12 times each day. We even posted examples previously on this forum because some readers did not believe us.

We let the possibility, in "old" lobby, to play without time limit and without the ELO, and it was probably a mistake for the reason explained just before. This possibility has been removed now.

If you want to want to play with "no time limit", we now encourage you to play using "Training mode" ("infinite sign" in the new lobby), which is the safest way to play this way. >80% of the games without time limit were already played in "Training mode" before we did this change, so a huge majority of players already show their preference for this mode.

If you really want to play with an ELO gain/loss after your game, we now encourage you to create a Turn based game with the slowest speed (1 move every 2 days). If you were used to use "Normal mode + no time limit", it makes practically no difference: even if some of your opponents goes over their time limit (which is pretty high), you are absolutely not forced to expel them. However, the improvement compared to the previous situation is that you still have the possibility to expel a non-playing player in case it is needed.

Summary

• We did NOT remove the possibility to play with "no time limit" (or with friends)
• If you want to continue to play with no time limit, please use Training mode and there will be no timer.
• If you want to have low pressure but still want an ELO gain, please use Turn based with the slowest speed.

Now, we can read that some of you would like to play without time limit, in a game where they are able not to play during weeks, and still want to get an ELO for that kind of game. Well, as BGA, we are saying that ELO, which is a competitive measurement, does not apply to this category of games. For you, I am sorry that we did a mistake by letting this possibility in the past, but this trick is not possible anymore.

[LoudLibrarian]

You did remove it...We don't want to do training mode with no time limit! We want to continue to play in NORMAL mode and have no time limit. Why would you remove that? As you can see, many are unhappy, can you please put it back?

I host weekly gaming programs through BGA for my library and this is really put a kink in the programing. We don't want to play in Training mode, we want Normal mode with no time limit!

[wpollock]

While it's true that some readers haven't seen the previous admin answers until now, my observation on reading these threads is that most have, but simply don't agree with them. To that end, let me try to help out here by compiling some of what's come up since the answers were previously posted, as well as trying to explain why this has gotten the response it has, in the hopes that we can get some answers on where the conversation has gone? (And if I've gotten anyone's position wrong, please correct me.)

Though first, this:

The problem with the players "trapped" in a game is a real thing: we did some statistics on it and this is happening, as an average 10 to 12 times each day. We even posted examples previously on this forum because some readers did not believe us.

It's hard for us to understand how large a problem this is, because this information feels incomplete. How many games were being created on average each day with no time limit (ideally broken down real time/turn based, before the new lobby was implemented)? How many of the "trapped" games, on average, were real time vs. turn based?

Moving on from that, what I've seen people saying is that having a no time limit option is an accessibility issue. That is, people were using this option because:
- They have physical disabilities or chronic illnesses,
- They have unusual work schedules that require working many days in a row,
- They have families that demand considerable attention,
- They're in developing countries with inconsistent electricity (I'm in this category -- it hasn't happened since joining BGA, but there have been 4-day power outages in the past), or
- They're in countries with inconsistent electricity for other reasons (it hasn't been mentioned yet, but Ukraine comes to mind).

There may be other reasons, I'm not claiming this is an exhaustive list.

All of us in these situations have used no time limit games because we have respect for our opponents, and everyone is willing to make the accommodation that we may through unforeseen circumstances lack access for some days at a time, and we've agreed that these circumstances shouldn't make us lose access to ELO, tracking wins and losses, gift points, or require us to take time penalties.

On the other hand, the consequence (as far as has been discussed) of someone being unable to play for an extended period of time, at least in a turn based game, is that the game sticks around for 40 days before BGA automatically drops it. That is, it's visual clutter. If there are concerns about server space, those haven't been mentioned.

So, the reason you are getting this severe a response is that people are observing -- whether you intended it or not -- that removing the visual clutter is being prioritized above these accessibility needs. And because these are personal circumstances, that feels personal.

By way of analogy, let's say a town decides to build a new library to replace their old building, which was at ground level. The new building has a beautiful stepped entrance, but no ramp. Sure, it's possible for anyone who has difficulty using stairs to use the new library, by getting someone to help, but it's not welcoming. And it does communicate who this new library is intended for, and who everyone involved in the design thinks doesn't belong enough to be considered.

I realize it may or may not be possible to bring no time limit games back for turn-based play only. Often, what those of us on the outside consider an easy solution is far more difficult when it comes to coding than we expect. (And it would help to know if this isn't possible for these reasons.) But please, at least seriously consider adding in a longer time limit option of a week or more. That would probably help to repair some of the friction here.

Thank you for your communication and consideration.

[Silene]

The problem with the players "trapped" in a game is a real thing: we did some statistics on it and this is happening, as an average 10 to 12 times each day. We even posted examples previously on this forum because some readers did not believe us.

You might have missed that in this thread, people asked for bringing the no time limit mode back only in turn-based mode. The possibility to be trapped however only existed in a real-time-setup of the game - which the examples you provided showed as well (in all tables you posted, the table was quit within a very short time - mostly within a few minutes).

[sourisdudesert]

It's hard for us to understand how large a problem this is, because this information feels incomplete.

10-12 players trapped each day is an issue that is not super important but that definitely matters and should be solved.

Moving on from that, what I've seen people saying is that having a no time limit option is an accessibility issue. That is, people were using this option because:
- They have physical disabilities or chronic illnesses,
- They have unusual work schedules that require working many days in a row,
- They have families that demand considerable attention,
- They're in developing countries with inconsistent electricity (I'm in this category -- it hasn't happened since joining BGA, but there have been 4-day power outages in the past), or
- They're in countries with inconsistent electricity for other reasons (it hasn't been mentioned yet, but Ukraine comes to mind).

In all of these situations, best is to use No Time Limit (= training mode), which did not disappear.

By way of analogy, let's say a town decides to build a new library to replace their old building, which was at ground level. The new building has a beautiful stepped entrance, but no ramp. Sure, it's possible for anyone who has difficulty using stairs to use the new library, by getting someone to help, but it's not welcoming. And it does communicate who this new library is intended for, and who everyone involved in the design thinks doesn't belong enough to be considered.

Situation before: You have to click on "Normal mode" (why would anyone do that?) and switch to "Training mode".
Situation with new lobby: You have a "Game speed" slider, and you can just move it to slowest speed which is "No time limit".

From our point of view, we have a new library AND a wonderful ramp

The possibility to be trapped however only existed in a real-time-setup of the game

Sorry, not true, there are both realtime and turn based tables concerned by the problem.

[Gulchen]

For what it's worth, I'm mentioning that I'd actually like the opposite combination:
games that have a time limit despite not being rated.

The point is, I am fairly often giving handicap, so I make the games non-rated to
avoid bad inputs to the elo system. ​ (drawing the players' ratings closer together)
However, I would prefer that this not also make the game untimed, so that we can see
the impact of just the handicap, rather than handicap plus making the game untimed.

[hascow]

From our point of view, we have a new library AND a wonderful ramp

This is not true if there is any sort of account penalty for going over time. It forces those players to explain their circumstances if they're playing with anyone other than their friends(or maybe they just get kicked), and they should not be forced to explain a personal circumstance/issue to strangers.

[GeraldineMerida]

Well, as BGA, we are saying that ELO, which is a competitive measurement, does not apply to this category of games. For you, I am sorry that we did a mistake by letting this possibility in the past, but this trick is not possible anymore.

Calling gaining ELO in a NTL game with hardcore gamer opponents a 'trick' is exactly the kind of insensitive response that makes your paying customers feel you REALLY don't care about us, and that rather than us not reading your previous responses, you are not hearing us.

Occasionally taking several days out of a game (which I personally don't do, but some of my opponents do) does not make it easier to gain ELO or invalidate the game result. The people I know who play in fits and starts are not spending all their days away from the game pondering their next move.

What next? Will you be making slow speed real-time play Training Mode only too, to stop these players from benefitting from the 'trick' of more time to plan ELO-boosting moves?